Page 2 of 17 FirstFirst
1
2
3
4
12
... LastLast
  1. #21
    I'm willing to bet no one in this thread actually knows what the fiscal cliff is or why it's called that.

    I view this as a good thing. It's the bad-tasting medicine we need to get back to a healthy economy.

  2. #22
    i never can understand this.. why should i care about a rich person paying their taxes and not worry about a person with 5 kids with 5 different fathers with no job collecting welfare then whining about government cutting their entitlements.. entitlements should be a help up not a hand out.. i would love to take some of you people on a tour of Reading, PA. we can stop by the local welfare office, see what kind of cars they drive, what kind of clothes they are wearing, got to make sure they have the new iphone 5, but god forbid they spend that money on food or education for 1 of their many kids..

  3. #23
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,604
    Quote Originally Posted by sorix View Post
    i never can understand this.. why should i care about a rich person paying their taxes and not worry about a person with 5 kids with 5 different fathers with no job collecting welfare then whining about government cutting their entitlements.. entitlements should be a help up not a hand out.. i would love to take some of you people on a tour of Reading, PA. we can stop by the local welfare office, see what kind of cars they drive, what kind of clothes they are wearing, got to make sure they have the new iphone 5, but god forbid they spend that money on food or education for 1 of their many kids..
    Everyone loves to point out the problem but never seems to offer a solution.

    Yeah, people abuse the system. That doesn't mean the system is worthless and should be removed.

  4. #24
    The Unstoppable Force Rukentuts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Mini Soda
    Posts
    23,841
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    I'm willing to bet no one in this thread actually knows what the fiscal cliff is or why it's called that.
    Because falling off a cliff is analogous to what our economy will do should it occur.
    Quote Originally Posted by GreatOak View Post
    Hey, as a transabled, transethnic, non-binary, genderqueer, neo-communist, indoor-capable republican otherkin I am offended by your callous display of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Eroginous View Post
    I wouldn't expect someone who thinks science provides proof to know that.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Because falling off a cliff is analogous to what our economy will do should it occur.
    In the short term, the spending reduction in the economy will hurt.

    In the long term, our debt:GDP ratio will fall to about 55% in 10 years.

    Like I said. Bad tasting medicine, but exactly what will leave us better off.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by sorix View Post
    i never can understand this.. why should i care about a rich person paying their taxes and not worry about a person with 5 kids with 5 different fathers with no job collecting welfare then whining about government cutting their entitlements.. entitlements should be a help up not a hand out.. i would love to take some of you people on a tour of Reading, PA. we can stop by the local welfare office, see what kind of cars they drive, what kind of clothes they are wearing, got to make sure they have the new iphone 5, but god forbid they spend that money on food or education for 1 of their many kids..
    Why do people like you think that everyone on welfare has 5 kids with 5 different fathers? I refuse to believe from the GOP hypocrites the welfare system is full of these type of people you describe. Just what in the hell are you talking about Sorix?!?! Lets see some proof and facts.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by sorix View Post
    i never can understand this.. why should i care about a rich person paying their taxes and not worry about a person with 5 kids with 5 different fathers with no job collecting welfare then whining about government cutting their entitlements.. entitlements should be a help up not a hand out.. i would love to take some of you people on a tour of Reading, PA. we can stop by the local welfare office, see what kind of cars they drive, what kind of clothes they are wearing, got to make sure they have the new iphone 5, but god forbid they spend that money on food or education for 1 of their many kids..
    People are idiots, more news at 11. The problem with the right is that they have their goddamn blinders on and seem to think that the majority of people on these programs are lazy and useless. The vast vast majority of them actually need these programs to survive and barely get by with what they get. Most people on welfare are children and the elderly. The truth behind the amount of fraud with welfare is extremely hard to come by but I've seen sub 2%. Meanwhile the top 1% barely pay shit in taxes, a lot of corporations who have enjoyed massive profits have barely paid shit in taxes and in fact a lot of them get a tax return where they make money off of the gov't. I believe the total amount of money that was given to corporations last year exceeded 50billion dollars, far far more than has defrauded from welfare in the last decade.

  8. #28
    the gop is and has been holding the senate hostage with filibusters
    Stormspellz -mugthol
    Battletag - Stormz#1438

  9. #29
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,604
    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Bad tasting medicine, but exactly what will leave us better off.
    You've espoused that theory a number of times before. Kind of the "rip the bandaid off" approach.

    I would image, however, that there would be a point where you just won't recover in any semblence of reasonable time. You could slash the government budget by 50% and raise taxes to 50% and get rid of all loopholes, and that would be great for the deficit and reduce our debt in no time, but the hardship on the people and the lack of revenue due to skyrocketing unemployment would prove a huge problem.

    I'm just not convinced the bad tasting medicine won't result in the US just falling apart economically. And I'm certainly not convinced it's a better approach than a more gradual reduction of the deficit over a protracted time.

    But let's face reality -- politicians won't give bad medicine to the US people because they won't get re-elected.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Lenonis View Post
    You've espoused that theory a number of times before. Kind of the "rip the bandaid off" approach.

    I would image, however, that there would be a point where you just won't recover in any semblence of reasonable time. You could slash the government budget by 50% and raise taxes to 50% and get rid of all loopholes, and that would be great for the deficit and reduce our debt in no time, but the hardship on the people and the lack of revenue due to skyrocketing unemployment would prove a huge problem.

    I'm just not convinced the bad tasting medicine won't result in the US just falling apart economically. And I'm certainly not convinced it's a better approach than a more gradual reduction of the deficit over a protracted time.

    But let's face reality -- politicians won't give bad medicine to the US people because they won't get re-elected.
    Let's be clear here. An increase in corporate taxes could hurt employment.

    An increase in personal taxes would not. If an increase in personal taxes would harm employment then logic dictates that cutting taxes would help it.

    Exactly how many times has that worked as a strategy? None. I'll tell you why.

    Because once a corporation pays out money to their employees, they don't care whether that money is spent by the government or by the employee themselves. A hike in personal income taxes doesn't harm the corporation. A hike in personal income taxes (Under $250,000/yr) doesn't harm the huge majority of people working for a company. The only people the fiscal cliff will harm are those making over $250,000. CEOs and other corporate officers. Big ticket employees who don't actually spend most of their money (and thus, don't contribute to demand).

    The only conceivable reason they'd have to cut employment would be to spite the government. Unfortunately, cutting employment means cutting capacity. In an economy where demand is accelerating, that's sacrificing profit for the sake of making the government look stupid. The shareholders of your company don't give a fly-covered shit that you're (the CEO) paying too much in taxes. They want their profit. They're not going to sit by as you sink their ship.

    If anything an increase in personal taxes will help the economy in the long run since it's taking money from the top level and recirculating it back into the bottom rather than around the top (Most big money is invested and doesn't find its way back down to the bottom. What goes up does not necessarily come down in the world of finance.). That won't happen in this case because the US budget is funded by huge deficits. The amount of money being spent won't change. We, the people, won't see a notable change for a year or more. We may even have some contraction in 2013. It will, however, be better in the long run. The alternative scenario still leaves us with about 80% debt/GDP by 2022. That's absurd.

    What we need is deficit cuts NOW. Further, we should raise taxes even more on those making over $250,000 so they're actually paying 35% of their income in taxes (as opposed to 18%) which would might even give us a surplus to finance other social programs.

    Because fuck it, if we refuse to run things the right way (Libertarian) we may as well make it work.

  11. #31
    Damn man every time Republicans talk about cutting the safety net it brings back those stuff I learned about how the Nazi's dealt with mentally retarded people. Social security is fiscally sound until 2038. The problem is assholes keep using it as a slush fund for their pet projects so it is going broke.

    Medicare is screwed because Bush added Medicare-D did not fund shit and then said the government could not compete with insurance companies so pills that cost 4$ could be negotiated down to 2$ per, but that would hurt private business and Republicans just hate that.

    Go over the damn cliff. Maybe if these red states got slammed with these budget cuts the red necks would finally understand government can help and they should stop defending people with so many damn tax breaks that they end up paying less then 10% a hell of alot of the time while also off shoring their money.
    http://raptr.com/puremallace/about

    What has been made by QQ can be unmade by QQ!!!

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,599
    To be honest, Obama is in a pretty good situation with the fiscal cliff. Politically that is.

    He can let the tax cuts expire, and blame it on Republicans for not compromising. Then on January 2nd he can propose a new tax cut for those making less than $250,000. If the Republicans block that, then they are on record denying middle class tax cuts, which they won't do.
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    To be honest, Obama is in a pretty good situation with the fiscal cliff. Politically that is.

    He can let the tax cuts expire, and blame it on Republicans for not compromising. Then on January 2nd he can propose a new tax cut for those making less than $250,000. If the Republicans block that, then they are on record denying middle class tax cuts, which they won't do.
    So wait, you think Obama would be happy with not getting to tax the rich more than they already are because of political reasons and THEN propose a tax cut on the middle-class? I surely hope democrats are smarter than that... I sure hope that they realize, if he was to even have that vision pop in his head for a second, that he's DEFINITELY not fit to run the country.

    To even THINK about cutting taxes on the middle-class would be ludicrous in the economy we are in.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Rukentuts View Post
    Raise estate and capital gains tax rates back up to the way they were under Clinton with that bill as well then I'll be sold.
    Or, here's an idea: make capital gains rates the same as income rates. It's ridiculous that a doctor pays about three times the tax rate as Mitt Romney, who does fuck-all for society.

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer Lenonis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2011
    Location
    Chicago, IL
    Posts
    3,604
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    So wait, you think Obama would be happy with not getting to tax the rich more than they already are because of political reasons and THEN propose a tax cut on the middle-class? I surely hope democrats are smarter than that... I sure hope that they realize, if he was to even have that vision pop in his head for a second, that he's DEFINITELY not fit to run the country.

    To even THINK about cutting taxes on the middle-class would be ludicrous in the economy we are in.
    Boy did you read into that all sorts of ways.

    What Deadvolcanoes was saying is pretty much the truth. Current polling indicates a large majority of people will hold the GOP responsible if there is no resolution to the fiscal cliff. So that's a political win for Obama. That doesn't mean that is what Obama is hoping for or working for.

    If the taxes go up, then the strategy will go from "tax the rich more, keep taxes the same for middle class" to "keep taxes on the rich the same, and revert the middle class taxes back to bush tax cut levels". If the republicans block that then it's yet another political win for Obama and the dems.

    That's the political reality the GOP is facing, not the agenda of the president.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by sorix View Post
    i never can understand this.. why should i care about a rich person paying their taxes and not worry about a person with 5 kids with 5 different fathers with no job collecting welfare then whining about government cutting their entitlements.. entitlements should be a help up not a hand out.. i would love to take some of you people on a tour of Reading, PA. we can stop by the local welfare office, see what kind of cars they drive, what kind of clothes they are wearing, got to make sure they have the new iphone 5, but god forbid they spend that money on food or education for 1 of their many kids..
    Standard Republican talking point about hinting about how the black women has so much sex that she has 5 children from 5 different guys....

    Well as far as I know the biggest receiver of Federal money are overall the Red States (they get back more then they give).

    Also as a person I would rather see a those kind of people getting money then a rich person getting the money. Giving thousand poor/middle class persons a thousand each is much better for the economy and thus the country then to give a single person a million, those thousand people will most likley spend most of it but that rich person will at best just invest it or let it rot in a bank.

    Also raising the taxes on the top 2 or 3% of the businesses won't really harm the US economy, raising the taxes on everybody will.

  17. #37
    Here is a novel idea: Lets raise taxes on the rich and cut spending, then everyone can be happy and we can fix the problem even faster. Its called compromise.

    /debt

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Luuth View Post
    Here is a novel idea: Lets raise taxes on the rich and cut spending, then everyone can be happy and we can fix the problem even faster. Its called compromise.

    /debt
    That's... exactly what the fiscal cliff is.

  19. #39
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2011
    Location
    Connecticut, USA
    Posts
    3,599
    Quote Originally Posted by alturic View Post
    So wait, you think Obama would be happy with not getting to tax the rich more than they already are because of political reasons and THEN propose a tax cut on the middle-class? I surely hope democrats are smarter than that... I sure hope that they realize, if he was to even have that vision pop in his head for a second, that he's DEFINITELY not fit to run the country.
    Your response leads me to believe that you don't understand the basics of the fiscal cliff.

    By letting the tax cuts expire, Obama does get to tax the rich more. However, it also raises taxes on the middle class. To combat this, all he has to do is propose a tax cut after the cliff for those making less than $250,000 a year, putting them back to the levels of Dec. 31 2012.

    He basically gets to blame Republicans for increasing middle class taxes, and then gets to take credit for lowering middle class taxes.

    To even THINK about cutting taxes on the middle-class would be ludicrous in the economy we are in.
    No. To lower taxes on the rich, as Romney proposed, is ludicrous.

    What I'm suggesting doesn't lower taxes on the middle class. It keeps their tax rate the same.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 06:03 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    That's... exactly what the fiscal cliff is.
    Except the cliff raises taxes on everyone, not just the rich as he suggested.
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Except the cliff raises taxes on everyone, not just the rich as he suggested.
    The tax increases for the median and below incomes are really quite minor.

    Personally I'd rather just have tax increases for people over 250k.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •