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  1. #21
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackmoves View Post
    Dude, real men don't complain. You just do what needs doing. Man the fuck up. *wink*
    Actually, you made me think of something.

    There were 2 arguments presented here.

    1. Boys like to rough and tumble when they play, and we shouldn't try to change their nature.
    2. Boys are taught to man up and be stoic, so we should teach them to be sensitive.

    The two seem kind of inconsistent. Is it a boy's nature to be stoic, or is it taught? Should we teach being stoic, or teach them to share feelings and go to the damn doctor and protest injustice against them and what not?

  2. #22
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    well thats certainly a different tune.
    No, it's the same tune I've always had, you've just been making terrible strawman arguments and accusing me of things I never actually said.


    There should be equal opportunities for those who want to go for them, equal provisions for those who in need of them and equal choices for those who have to make them.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    "classically masculine traits" such as?
    Competition (Removal of "tag" and "dodgeball" in schools to name a few) chief among them. Classically male bonding practices (ball busting, insulting etc) are called bullying. Aggression, rather than being taught to control it, boys are taught that it's a bad feeling they should feel bad about.

    Not to mention there are classically sexist stereotypes still being taught such as "never hit a lady", "ladies first" etc.

    Keep in mind I'm not suggesting it's okay to hit ANYONE, but my small nephew was pushed down by a girl and when he got up and pushed her back, he was the one who got punished. That's a pretty shitty message. I made damn sure his teacher knew it too.

  4. #24
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    No, it's the same tune I've always had, you've just been making terrible strawman arguments and accusing me of things I never actually said.


    There should be equal opportunities for those who want to go for them, equal provisions for those who in need of them and equal choices for those who have to make them.
    here you argue that one simply cant "make things a 2:2 ratio and call it equal" while ignoring the other ramifications. i agree.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-27 at 02:43 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    Competition (Removal of "tag" and "dodgeball" in schools to name a few) chief among them. Classically male bonding practices (ball busting, insulting etc) are called bullying. Aggression, rather than being taught to control it, boys are taught that it's a bad feeling they should feel bad about.

    Not to mention there are classically sexist stereotypes still being taught such as "never hit a lady", "ladies first" etc.

    Keep in mind I'm not suggesting it's okay to hit ANYONE, but my small nephew was pushed down by a girl and when he got up and pushed her back, he was the one who got punished. That's a pretty shitty message. I made damn sure his teacher knew it too.
    those traits lend to the very views of society that are claimed to be "oppressive".

    that men are violent, unempathetic, and disposable.

  5. #25
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Schools that remove competition to reinforce people with "it's the taking part that counts" are stunting growth. There's no drive to improve, because what's the point if you try harder and push more than someone who doesn't give a damn, only to be told "everyone's a winner."

    This isn't a change that was made to placate girls, but it's sure as hell hurt boys.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post



    those traits lend to the very views of society that are claimed to be "oppressive".

    that men are violent, unempathetic, and disposable.
    I don't see how at all you're making that connection from what you quoted.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  7. #27
    20:1 death stat is highly questionable, most deaths are from high risk physical labor like mining where females are nearly none existent in those fields.
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  8. #28
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    here you argue that one simply cant "make things a 2:2 ratio and call it equal" while ignoring the other ramifications. i agree.
    You misunderstand. Suicide ratio is 3:1. That means if you've a pool of 40 suicides, statistically there will be 30 males and 10 females.

    Make a 2:2 ratio would mean balancing it out so you've 40 suicides with 20 to 20, which is the wrong way to go about it, because you've increased female suicide rates. What you want is to bring the men down to the women's level and save 20 more lives. (Ideally you'd like to save everyone but this isn't a disney fairytale)

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    20:1 death stat is highly questionable, most deaths are from high risk physical labor like mining where females are nearly none existent in those fields.
    I think thats the point.

    *~To change one's life: Start immediately. Do it flamboyantly.~*

  10. #30
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stormspellz View Post
    20:1 death stat is highly questionable, most deaths are from high risk physical labor like mining where females are nearly none existent in those fields.
    Actually, construction and the rail industry are some of the leading causes of workplace death.

  11. #31
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by muchtoohigh View Post
    I don't see how at all you're making that connection from what you quoted.
    its those traits taken to extremes, as society is wont to view things in the extreme.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    those traits lend to the very views of society that are claimed to be "oppressive".

    that men are violent, unempathetic, and disposable.
    That's bullshit. Men aren't violent nor are we unempathetic. We sure as FUCK aren't disposable (at least not in a modern society). Maybe men ARE more aggressive than women (I don't know, I'm not a neuroscientist) but that doesn't make us inherently more violent.

    Last year something like 160 million men in the United States managed to not commit a violent crime. Men also tend to have stronger, more stable friendships than women despite our apparently antisocial bonding mechanisms.

    Men just do things differently than women. Why the fuck is that wrong?

  13. #33
    Eventually these activist groups will just run out of other people's money, then they will be forced to do what's most efficient.

    IMO, men tend to be more reactionary and singleminded than women. We need to be pushed or push ourselves, but there's no point learning something if it doesn't inspire you.

    Society is creating a lost generation and it will come back to haunt people. Less educated men mean less ideal partners. That's already having a ripple effect now.

    The truth is far left politics are dangerous and need to be fought. I'm really not surprised that people send their children to private schools to escape this nonsense.
    Last edited by Garian; 2012-11-27 at 10:59 PM.
    "These people, Adam, they're like ghosts. Always in the shadows. Always hiding behind lies and proxy soldiers. I need you to find them. They cannot stop us. They cannot stop the future".

  14. #34
    The problem I have is not specific to sexism, but to any inequality. Racism and sexism are the two most visible in our society right now and the problem is those fighting for equality often don't want or go beyond equality. It becomes a "now it's our turn" mentality.

    Rather than fighting for unbiased equal consideration, we get affirmative action. So instead of hiring the most qualified, you have to take race/gender into consideration in order to prevent race/gender previously being taken into consideration.

    So a man and woman have equal qualifications, the man slightly more years experience, and they both do well on the interview. In some cases, companies are expected to choose the female applicant. That's still sexual discrimination, only in reverse of how it used to be.

    Humanity seems incapable of righting our injustices. We have to swing the pendulum back past equality to the opposite side before we let it settle in the middle.

    Black, man, White, Hispanic, woman, Asian....we'll get to an equal setting where these things don't matter eventually. We'll find equality, but I definitely see people get too wrapped up on "righting the past wrongs" instead of striving for equality from here forward.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  15. #35
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    You misunderstand. Suicide ratio is 3:1. That means if you've a pool of 40 suicides, statistically there will be 30 males and 10 females.

    Make a 2:2 ratio would mean balancing it out so you've 40 suicides with 20 to 20, which is the wrong way to go about it, because you've increased female suicide rates. What you want is to bring the men down to the women's level and save 20 more lives. (Ideally you'd like to save everyone but this isn't a disney fairytale)
    right. its better to make things better for everyone instead of sowing needless suffering the other in the name of equality.

  16. #36
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    that men are violent, unempathetic, and disposable.
    That's right up there with the gender stereotype that women are irrational, likely to overreact and cause drama.

    Both viewpoints are wrong.

  17. #37
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laize View Post
    That's bullshit. Men aren't violent nor are we unempathetic. We sure as FUCK aren't disposable (at least not in a modern society). Maybe men ARE more aggressive than women (I don't know, I'm not a neuroscientist) but that doesn't make us inherently more violent.

    Last year something like 160 million men in the United States managed to not commit a violent crime. Men also tend to have stronger, more stable friendships than women despite our apparently antisocial bonding mechanisms.

    Men just do things differently than women. Why the fuck is that wrong?
    of course. the whole idea is to attempt to reach a better balance of masculine & feminine in society.

  18. #38
    Scarab Lord Roose's Avatar
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    Testosterone ain't worth what it used to be. That is for sure.

    This is really symptomatic of a far greater issue imo. We are fighting genetics and evolution. The problem stems from how we live, which is a really huge deal.

    This world is not meant to do what we are doing with it.

  19. #39
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by darenyon View Post
    right. its better to make things better for everyone instead of sowing needless suffering the other in the name of equality.
    So where have I ever said anything ever that was different?

  20. #40
    Legendary! darenyon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fengore View Post
    That's right up there with the gender stereotype that women are irrational, likely to overreact and cause drama.

    Both viewpoints are wrong.
    they stem from or are a result of encouraging hyper masculinism & hyper feminism.

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