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  1. #201
    Legendary! Ryme's Avatar
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    I'm of the opinion that the purchasing of guns for civillian use should be steadily made more difficult to do, with tighter restrictions being brought in alongside this. In a similar way to how smoking is slowly being made illegal, so should the ability to own and purchase firearms.
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  2. #202
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tommo View Post
    Keep on the topic of gun violence and quit using hypotheticals to justify yourself.
    Isn't the topic the American culture of gun ownership?

    Every responsible gun owner believes that gun violence is a bad thing.

  3. #203
    To be fair in the comparisons of the US to say, Japan in gun violence; yes America has a higher rate due to the availability of guns. When you look at "violent crime" stats, it really wouldn't seem to be much higher. Violent crime however, varies by country in definition.. so it really isn't apples to apples.

    This pains me deep to say this (I'm an oreo half white half black), but there is another reason- have you looked at the black or hispanic culture in America vs say Japan again? It's "cool" to have a body, or own an illegal gun. That doesn't say much about America, but you can't label guns as bad when honestly its the culture and people who use them.

  4. #204
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    This might be interesting to the discussion.

    http://www.gallup.com/poll/20098/gun...e-america.aspx

    Male gun owners are more likely than female owners to say they use a gun for hunting (63% to 45%, respectively) or for target shooting (68% to 59%), while female owners are slightly more likely than male gun owners to use a gun for protection (74% to 63%, respectively).

    Gun owners aged 18 to 49, are more likely than those aged 50 and older to say they use a gun for hunting (65% to 52%) or for target practice (74% to 58%). There are essentially no differences between younger and older gun owners who use their guns for crime protection (67% among 18- to 49-year-olds and 64% of those aged 50 and older).

    Republican and Democratic gun owners are almost equally likely to say they use a gun for protection against crime, 64% to 69%, respectively. However, Republicans are more likely than Democrats to say they use a gun for target shooting (71% to 53%) or for hunting (64% to 53%).
    The focus seems to be on guns as protection in this thread, but in trying to understand the culture of gun ownership, it's important to note how big a role hunting and sport play.

  5. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by dantian View Post
    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but should push come to shove the military would crush any rebellion effortlessly. Tanks and drones beat well-armed civilians.
    What makes you think that the military (or more likely a sizable portion thereof) would not refuse to fire on the populace? Or not join said rebellion? Depends on the reasons for the rebellion.

  6. #206
    Most of the people who replied in this thread have no brains. Guns are not the problem, people are the problem. If we took the guns away like mental people want, we would have many more knife killings and things like that. UK has strict gun laws, yes they have very few murders involving firearms but many murders involving knives and other none firearm weapons. Why the US is so much more violent and evil, goes back to the founding of America our country was brought up because of blood and violence we as a country have been in many major wars. Also the media and them glorifying violence and criminals and showing them everyday on the news and things of the such. guns are not the problem people are! its the scum of society the gangsters the people living in the ghettos who have guns and who murder with them and then little kids growing up to be like the dropping out of school to be like them and follow the same path to crime and death. then people glorifying weed as being the best thing ever and drugs being great and drinking young being awesome and if you dont do it you aren't cool. then kids want to be cool and start doing weed and causing trouble, it just goes back to society causing all the problems and turning kids into little gangster.

  7. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    The past few years have been marred with a lot of really shocking news reports regarding gun related deaths in the United States. Because of those stories, I do wholeheartedly believe that gun owners in America have gotten a pretty bad rap across the board. From what I've gleamed via forums, facebook, youtube, and anywhere else people can freely comment, the majority of disgust and negative stereotypes seem to come from Canada, the UK, and or other parts of Europe.

    As a gun owner I've gotten really depressed by this. While I understand that some peoples opinions will never change, I do feel that there is a responsibility to be had of gun owners to actively reach out, discuss, educate, and listen to non gun owners.

    There are a great deal of gun owners in this country who recognize that it is THEIR responsibility to protect their home, family, and self. It is not the responsibility of the police, and as the popular saying goes "When seconds count, the police are only minutes away."

    In the United States, the belief is that Firearms are an equalizer and a right held in the ability for protection. It's really difficult even when you want to be realistic, to think of balanced ways to "fix" the system because it isn't a light switch and it isn't easy.

    Now, I could waste more time but I'd like to do this. I'm fairly level headed and I do choose things out of principle rather than personal belief, so if you're someone who has an opinion you'd like to express to me or a question, I invite you to do so. I would, for once, like to see someone be proactive in this subject, even if it flops.

    Thanks.
    Guns have one purpose: To kill.
    I hold no illusions about guns.

    But you're right, discussion is always the way to go to create insight, understanding and perhaps help change something.
    I do feel that the argument that guns are for self-defence is a weak one, seeing as how guns are used for crime 99.99% of the time. I have yet to see a single news report about a valid self-defence situation in which a gun owner protects his home/family or others that are in danger. Infact I've seen news reports that show how BAD people are at the latter, and how it's much more of an added risk to have every day Joe's have a gun, because in most cases they have insufficient training and will panic in a dangerous situation.

  8. #208
    Titan PizzaSHARK's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dantian View Post
    I hate to be the one to break it to you, but should push come to shove the military would crush any rebellion effortlessly. Tanks and drones beat well-armed civilians.
    Tanks are completely irrelevant and in fact counter-productive against people on foot and especially in dense, urban areas. Tanks are designed to fight other tanks and attack convoys in wide, open areas across several miles, not blast buildings twenty feet away in the streets.

    And before you say a bunch of amateurs with guns and improvised explosives can't do jack... well, what the fuck do you think we've been fighting against for damned near the entire past decade? Sure, they aren't winning... but they ain't lost, either.
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  9. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by kays View Post
    Most of the people who replied in this thread have no brains. Guns are not the problem, people are the problem. If we took the guns away like mental people want, we would have many more knife killings and things like that. UK has strict gun laws, yes they have very few murders involving firearms but many murders involving knives and other none firearm weapons. Why the US is so much more violent and evil, goes back to the founding of America our country was brought up because of blood and violence we as a country have been in many major wars. Also the media and them glorifying violence and criminals and showing them everyday on the news and things of the such. guns are not the problem people are! its the scum of society the gangsters the people living in the ghettos who have guns and who murder with them and then little kids growing up to be like the dropping out of school to be like them and follow the same path to crime and death. then people glorifying weed as being the best thing ever and drugs being great and drinking young being awesome and if you dont do it you aren't cool. then kids want to be cool and start doing weed and causing trouble, it just goes back to society causing all the problems and turning kids into little gangster.
    As an example.
    We will always have crime, no matter what we do. It's a matter of making these crimes reduced and or controlled. In countries in which we have strict gun laws, we've a way of controlling and reducing crimes in such gun laws.
    Owning a gun, as I've stated to the OP, never solves anything. It creates a world of distrust and suspicion. Foreigners see the US and it's citizens talk about freedoms and the rights of all, but at the same time we see your citizens arm yourselves against one another.
    The argument that guns aren't the problem has a lot of holes in it. People are part of the problem, but guns the other part in that problem.

  10. #210
    Guns should only be owned by people who:

    1. Pass a mental health check. No nut jobs.
    2. Pass a proper background check. (Does not have a crime/felony on them.)
    3. Has take a course regarding safety, usage, etc.
    4. Be over the age of 18.

    (This should apply regardless of whether your gun owning is because of hunting, work or just-for-home-defence.)
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  11. #211
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    I'm also from the US and am an avid gun owner. I have 9 firearms to my name, three of which I regularly take to the range and take my grouping quite seriously. I, of course, clean them as soon as I'm home before they make it back into the case. I load my own rounds for everything but the 12 gauge and have a small press/setup in the garage.

    I refuse to dive into the debate about gun safety, however. Its sort of like getting a piss test for work. I know millions of people around the world have screwed up bad enough to make this mandatory, but to me it's just another hiccup we have to go through. Just like gun safety / laws. I've always had an extreme care and respect for firearms, ever since I shot my first one at 5 years old. To me, it was never a question of safety but more one of common sense. But as many have said, that's not always the case.

    Just about anything in the hands of a careless/stupid person can be considered dangerous.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

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  12. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by PizzaSHARK View Post
    Tanks are completely irrelevant and in fact counter-productive against people on foot and especially in dense, urban areas. Tanks are designed to fight other tanks and attack convoys in wide, open areas across several miles, not blast buildings twenty feet away in the streets.

    And before you say a bunch of amateurs with guns and improvised explosives can't do jack... well, what the fuck do you think we've been fighting against for damned near the entire past decade? Sure, they aren't winning... but they ain't lost, either.
    No, they are not. What many armored vehicles are though, is clunky and some times bad at urban warfare.
    They are good for holding an area or pushing a front. Infantry needs armored vehicles and the armored vehicles need the infantry.

    Gerilla warfare is effective only when the force you are fighting is unwilling to kill civilians. It's become an effective way of fighting because the rules of war can be exploited to your advantage.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    I'm also from the US and am an avid gun owner. I have 9 firearms to my name, three of which I regularly take to the range and take my grouping quite seriously. I, of course, clean them as soon as I'm home before they make it back into the case. I load my own rounds for everything but the 12 gauge and have a small press/setup in the garage.

    I refuse to dive into the debate about gun safety, however. Its sort of like getting a piss test for work. I know millions of people around the world have screwed up bad enough to make this mandatory, but to me it's just another hiccup we have to go through. Just like gun safety / laws. I've always had an extreme care and respect for firearms, ever since I shot my first one at 5 years old. To me, it was never a question of safety but more one of common sense. But as many have said, that's not always the case.

    Just about anything in the hands of a careless/stupid person can be considered dangerous.
    If there's anything I've ever learned about people, it's that you cannot count on them to be responsible and have sense. If they were, we wouldn't need laws at all.

    Yes but the difference is that a gun has no other purpose that to kill. That anything COULD be used to kill with, doesn't make a gun look any better.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 05:57 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Lily Crowley View Post
    Guns should only be owned by people who:

    1. Pass a mental health check. No nut jobs.
    2. Pass a proper background check. (Does not have a crime/felony on them.)
    3. Has take a course regarding safety, usage, etc.
    4. Be over the age of 18.

    (This should apply regardless of whether your gun owning is because of hunting, work or just-for-home-defence.)
    Isn't all of that, stuff that they check and that you have to go through to own one as it is?

  13. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Tarashan View Post
    What makes you think that the military (or more likely a sizable portion thereof) would not refuse to fire on the populace? Or not join said rebellion? Depends on the reasons for the rebellion.
    The same reason they kill innocent civilians in any other part of the world... they're told they're the enemy, and are trained to put morality aside while on active combat missions.

    I hate to break this to you, but the American Military trains the soldiers to simply obey orders and are taught to separate personal morality from on-duty activities - the reason being that thinking morally causes delayed reactions in mission-critical moments, and a split-second moral conflict causing you to pause could mean the difference between not only your own life or death, but the life/death of your fellow soldiers as well - not to mention the success/failure of a mission.

    ...and before anybody starts white-knighting me saying "I/My soldier friend/relative have morales!", please read that I'm talking about ACTIVE on-duty situations. They're taught to set morality aside for THOSE situations only... not their lives as a whole. :P
    Last edited by mvallas; 2012-11-28 at 05:00 PM.
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  14. #214
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    \

    Yes but the difference is that a gun has no other purpose that to kill. That anything COULD be used to kill with, doesn't make a gun look any better.
    What difference does that make? A round from my rifle hasn't hit anything but my targets in over a decade. Seems pretty safe to me. As you pointed out, people are unpredictable and cannot be counted on. Why would I waste my time wondering what they're doing with their firearms? I know mine are safe when I have them and safely locked up when I don't. Even if the laws were tightened and became more strict, the same criminals who illegally own and use guns now would still be owning the same guns and using them to hurt people. Criminals are pretty well known for associating with crime, last I checked.
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

    Formerly Ryngo Blackratchet

  15. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by hakujinbakasama View Post
    . Because of those stories, I do wholeheartedly believe that gun owners in America have gotten a pretty bad rap across the board.
    It's not because of those stories, it's because the fact that you keep killing each other with them. For the rest of the world it shines out as a perfect example of why we shouldn't let everyone have a gun, because it leads to people killing other people, something we would like to avoid. And it has nothing to do with the morons doing stupid and tragic things. They remind us of the stupidity of man, but it is fact that reminds us why giving guns to everyone and anyone doesn't work. Because if it actually worked and made it a safer place, then it wouldn't be over 14 times as probable for me to get shot in the US as it is in my home country, or over 4 times as likley as it is in Sweden where I live, and we are having a massive gun problem, yet it isn't even on the same scale as the US one.

  16. #216
    the wild west was 250 years ago, the only "need " people have today for guns is so that corporations to continue profit from this billion dollar industry , everyone owning guns will always do more harm than having none .

  17. #217
    Pandaren Monk Auloria's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Creamy Flames View Post
    Guns have one purpose: To kill.
    I hold no illusions about guns.

    But you're right, discussion is always the way to go to create insight, understanding and perhaps help change something.
    I do feel that the argument that guns are for self-defence is a weak one, seeing as how guns are used for crime 99.99% of the time. I have yet to see a single news report about a valid self-defence situation in which a gun owner protects his home/family or others that are in danger. Infact I've seen news reports that show how BAD people are at the latter, and how it's much more of an added risk to have every day Joe's have a gun, because in most cases they have insufficient training and will panic in a dangerous situation.
    My family's guns have been used 100% for hunting and practice.

    The presence of a gun is a deterrent to crime. It's hard to accumulate statistics on that, because people don't report "Well, I decided to steal from that guy instead of the hunter across the street." I have however, seen many stories about guns used in self defense. I did a quick google search and found a website from a guy who collects these stories (hasnt been updated in a year). http://www.thearmedcitizen.com/

    I understand your discomfort with guns, but it's not fair to skew the truth to fit your argument.

  18. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by Auloria View Post
    My family's guns have been used 100% for hunting and practice.

    The presence of a gun is a deterrent to crime.
    Then how come the gun-crime in the US is incredibly unproportionaly huge? 14 times more per 100.000 habitants than Scotland for example?

    Also when you hunt, you kill things.

  19. #219
    I am Murloc! Luko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Keske View Post
    Then how come the gun-crime in the US is incredibly unproportionaly huge? 14 times more per 100.000 habitants than Scotland for example?
    Because criminals commit crimes. How do you suggest they fix that?
    Listen kiddos, trust Handsome Jack. You want every part of this insanity.
    So many people are gonna die.

    Formerly Ryngo Blackratchet

  20. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryngo Blackratchet View Post
    Because criminals commit crimes. How do you suggest they fix that?
    Well I would suggest not handing out weapons to everyone, since well... facts says, that makes you kill each other. We are not free from criminals over here yet we manage to not kill each others. Or are you saying that your average American would just be 14 times as murderous than your Average Brittish bloke?

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