ITT: Reasonably level-headed and responsible gun owners trying to get ideas across while angry, vitriol-spewing Euros can't understand how the ideals created in their bubbles of existence can't be blanketed across the entire known universe. I'm really happy for anyone who lives in a part of the world where guns are unnecessary and/or banned and that such an existence works so well for them. Things are different in America. Get that through your heads. Stop being so presumptuous as to think you could fix all the violent crime problems we have with something that ignores all the other variables out there with a sweeping gun ban. It's been explained ad nauseum why this wouldn't work by people who actually live here and understand the situation better than you.
But let's be real. No one is going to be convinced or change their minds because of this discussion. So why don't all you gun haters, most of whom don't even seem to live in the US, stop wishing you could impose your bans and angry retributions on us? I don't recall any of the pro-gun people in this thread ever saying anything to the effect of how they'd like to force all of your cultures and countries to be inundated with guns the way we are.
I don't own a gun.
Also, I should mention as an aside, that it's not really an insult to call it as I see it. Because I am seeing just so much America hate in this thread.
The fact that gun violence still exists in countries where possession is restricted or banned, however, does say something. I could easily argue that if you ban guns, the only people that carry them are criminals. And like it or not, the Second Amendment is not going away anytime soon.
I will argue that gun safety education is somewhat lax in many of the American states; hence why I believe gun safety should be a mandatory part of Health education in High School. Even someone that doesn't carry a gun should know how to handle one safely.
The inherent problem is that commiting a crime with anything else than a gun makes it very difficult to kill someone. It does not matter what you are using, a sword, a warhammer, a chainsaw or a your bare hands it is difficult for anyone to get up close and kill someone. Even more difficult when it comes to cases of mass murder. Further more it is inherently easyer to disable or resist someone who is not using a firearm, unless there is an abysmal gap in physical strength. Having a firearm is as much of an equalizer as not having one. And as proven fact in countries with strict gun control, criminals are equally unarmed as private citizens.
It is impossible to prove that less guns would reduce the murder rate because it is impossible to collect empirical evidence related to the geographical location. In this case the United States. To prove less guns equals less gun crime, firearms would need to be as strictly controled as within Europe and would need to be equally rare and hard to aquire. Then you could do a before and after comparision and you would have empirical evidence that the crime rate remained the same or it dropped.
I'm not here to piss off anyone and I have said before I can hardly see the United States as a gun free society, and that I still think that allowing the owenership of Assault Rifles, Semi Automatics or other military grade firearms by the public is a mistake and an overkill as they are hardly needed either for self defence or for hunting.
But saying by default that less guns would mean more criminals with guns and more crime is only a potential fact within U.S context and in other parts of the world is the exact oposite.
The U.S. is different exactly due to it's long history of gun culture.
A few more facts. Based on UN statistics from 2010,
(You can find them here http://www.unodc.org/unodc/en/data-a...cide-2011.html) the United states has double the Homicide rate then Europe. This has to have SOMETHING to do with the availability of firearms. Europe or the U.S can hardly compare themselves to anyone else beyond perphaps Australia or New Zealand due to both being developed regions with high relative living standards. But if you compare U.S and E.U you have to admit there is a disparity there. I remind you when you consider Europe as a region we are talking about a place where we have 500 million people living in a space with very high population density, with heavy immigration both from Africa, Asia. Yet homicide rates are still lower.
The only logical conclusion is that either Homicide rates are tied to the availability of firearms, or American's as a people are just more prone to violence. And the second I refuse to accept as an arguement. Americans living in Europe without firearms are EXACTLY the same people EXACTLY as violent or non-violent as local Europeans.
Last edited by Mihalik; 2012-11-30 at 07:34 PM.