Why can't Blizzard just admit they are wrong?

[Jayjayhey]

Seriously, is it that hard? I have tried joining two 25 man guilds since Mists, and guess what? The expected happen. The 10 best quit off to form a 10 man guild, because it is easier to manage, easier to tell people what to do, easier to control, etc, and they DROP THE SAME LOOT.

C'mon Blizzard. What's taking you guys so long? Add incentives, or 25s are dead in the water, if they aren't already.

[Deja Thoris]

Wow-progress proveotherwise.

[Maleric]

Is there a way to adequately encourage people to do 25s without causing issues for 10s?

And even if there is a way to make 25s and 10s equally attractive, is there a reason to do so? 10s and 25s appeal to the same audience, and the audience that 10s were for back in BC and Wrath now has LFR.

[UunaPriest]

So what you are saying is: 10 mans are more fun... but you want to be forced to do 25 mans?

[Gurbz]

Blizzard has talked about this a lot, specifically in the week or so before MoP launched. They acknowledge that 10-mans are a lot more popular than 25, for a lot of the reasons you listed. They would like to find a solution to that, but the challenge they are trying to deal with is how to make 25-mans attractive enough that people are willing to deal with the increased logistical difficulties of maintaining a 25-man raid but not so good that people abandon 10s because they feel like they are forced to do 25s for the rewards offered.

Basically, they want people to be able to choose the format that they like more, but acknowledge that right now it is not a choice between two equal options. Yet there is no solution they have come up with that solves that problem without creating new ones that are potentially worse.

[Speckix]

Wow-progress proveotherwise.

I think the problem with going by wow-progress is that most world first guilds are 25 man, and they are obviously going to be the majority of guilds clearing heroics right now. Just because the majority of guilds that have cleared 3/6H, 4/6H, etc. are 25 man does not mean 25 man is the most popular choice.

[Adramalech]

Add incentives, or 25s are dead in the water, if they aren't already.

This is just my own opinion on the matter, and I don't feel like entering a bloody back and forth discussion regarding it, but I feel like sharing this towards this specific statement: if the 25 man raid size NEEDS an incentive to prevent its "death", then it does deserve to die. That's my view on it. I do NOT want 25 mans to go away. While it's not my size of choice, it's not something that bothers me in the game, and that many people enjoy, so it's definitely something positive. It would be sad to see 25 mans go, but if they need an incentive to be ran, then they deserve to go.

[Deja Thoris]

I think the problem with going by wow-progress is that most world first guilds are 25 man, and they are obviously going to be the majority of guilds clearing heroics right now. Just because the majority of guilds that have cleared 3/6H, 4/6H, etc. are 25 man does not mean 25 man is the most popular choice.

I didn't say they were the popular choice but the OP stated they are "dead in the water". The truth is somewhere inbetween. I'm basically tired of every second thread here being from a person that states their POV as the absolute with no room for compromise (not you, the OP)

Blizz are looking at it, people take the path of least resistance, hardly blizz's fault imo.

[Kisho]

If those 10 wanted to do 25 mans, they would've stuck with you. That didn't happen, so they've obviously made a choice to go to 10 man.

It's not like they're saying 'ugghh, being FORCED to do 10 mans, I really want 25 mans they're so much better'. The 25 man option was right there for them but they didn't take it.

So if most people are taking the 10 man option and leaving 25 mans alone, what does that say? Maybe, just maybe, people prefer 10 mans in general? 25 mans really aren't as amazing as some people like to think.

[Deleted]

I can't understand why anyone would want to raid as 10man. The whole idea with raids is that it is a RAID and not a little group that can communicate more easy... Personally I looked long and hard and finally found me a perfect 18+ social but serious 25man guild and loving it.

But something that have been said many times about many thing in WoW. If you don't want to play 10man, then don't. The fact that the same loot drop in 10man has nothing to do with the loot in 25man. If you want to play 25man raids then find a 25man raiding guild. It's really that simple.

[Elodeon]

It would be sad to see 25 mans go, but if they need an incentive to be ran, then they deserve to go.

Agreed.

Don't prop up things that can't stand up on their own.

[SherbertLand]

I can't understand why anyone would want to raid as 10man. The whole idea with raids is that it is a RAID and not a little group that can communicate more easy... Personally I looked long and hard and finally found me a perfect 18+ social but serious 25man guild and loving it.

But something that have been said many times about many thing in WoW. If you don't want to play 10man, then don't. The fact that the same loot drop in 10man has nothing to do with the loot in 25man. If you want to play 25man raids then find a 25man raiding guild. It's really that simple.

I don't think people make entire gamestyle preferences based on how many people they feel "raid" should mean. In 10 mans, there's more bonding, it's a more casual experience, and doesn't have near as much lag. If you can't see those as reasons, I don't know what you're looking at.

[Durandro]

Blizzard isn't wrong. The playerbase is.

Fact is, most people don't want to do 25 man raids. They don't want to. At all. Only reason they used to do them was lack of choice and better gear. Now that the tables are more even (and 25 man gives more loot per person, there's your incentive) people prefer 10 man.

Why? Because people like to feel special, and not just a cog in the machine. In 25 man the only people who 'matter' are the tanks. The healers and dps are part of the machine, and only one of them gets to feel special when they top the meters. In 10 man everyone matters, even one death will likely cause a wipe further down the line and everyone needs to do their part to down the boss.

10 man also has less loot competition - sure that tier token will drop more often in 25 man, but you've got more competition. And in 10 man there's less lag, and some fights are easier (mostly the ones involving spreading out).

In the end, its the playerbase's preference that matters. If people don't join 25 man guilds its because they don't want to, not because Blizzard is wrong and has forced them not to do it.

There's only two types of people who like 25 man these days - the ultra elite, and the lazy people who like to blend into the background and not get noticed. Anything in between is rare nowadays.

So stop blaming Blizzard, and admit to yourself - you are the problem.

[Deleted]

10 man doesn't feels like raiding but it's fun anyway.

---------- Post added 2012-10-13 at 10:06 PM ----------

Blizzard isn't wrong. The playerbase is.

Fact is, most people don't want to do 25 man raids. They don't want to. At all. Only reason they used to do them was lack of choice and better gear. Now that the tables are more even (and 25 man gives more loot per person, there's your incentive) people prefer 10 man.

Why? Because people like to feel special, and not just a cog in the machine. In 25 man the only people who 'matter' are the tanks. The healers and dps are part of the machine, and only one of them gets to feel special when they top the meters. In 10 man everyone matters, even one death will likely cause a wipe further down the line and everyone needs to do their part to down the boss.

10 man also has less loot competition - sure that tier token will drop more often in 25 man, but you've got more competition. And in 10 man there's less lag, and some fights are easier (mostly the ones involving spreading out).

In the end, its the playerbase's preference that matters. If people don't join 25 man guilds its because they don't want to, not because Blizzard is wrong and has forced them not to do it.

There's only two types of people who like 25 man these days - the ultra elite, and the lazy people who like to blend into the background and not get noticed. Anything in between is rare nowadays.

So stop blaming Blizzard, and admit to yourself - you are the problem.

Fact it that there is really no choise, blizzard are pushing people into 10 man.

[Cakka]

Agreed.

Don't prop up things that can't stand up on their own.

This. There is absolutely no reason to support something that is shown it can't justify it's existence on even ground with 10 man raids. Now someone will say "but it's harder to run a 25 man raid guild and raids!", well exactly, and most people obviously don't want to do that given the chance not to.

Edit: I can kinda agree with OP though that Blizzard should admit something about 25 man raids and that is that they are now waste of resources to develop.

[Hartlin]

25m gets 6 drops to a 10 mans 2 drops.

That's 1 piece per 4.166 people in 25m
That's 1 piece per 5 people in 25m

That's 16.67% more drops per kill in 25m.

Seems like enough incentive to me.

Yes, I agree it's harder to manage and find 25 equally skilled players. That's why the rewards are greater.

[Deleted]

It isn't the general playerbase who are deciding ten over twenty five (I strongly suspect most raiders don't give two curly turds as long as they get the best loot possible loot from their raids), it's the raid leaders who are ditching 25 man.

The problem with using loot ilvl to incentivise 25 man raiding is pretty simple. The raid leader(s) does all the extra work and 24 people who arent doing a great deal different compared to their ten man equivalents get paid out for it. That's bad design. But......a correct level of reward for all the extra effort 25 mans require to just the raid leader however, would see a deluge of shit would be Rl's who haven't a clue what to do.

Such a shame blizzard didn't just cut the crap and go 15 man this time out. Blizzard are right that higher ilvl in 25 man makes little sense for the average raiders effort level and obviously haven't worked out a way to incentivse raid leaders to go 25 man without that. (I can't think of a way to do it either without causing even more headaches and drama, can you?)

[Thelxi]

No matter what, it will take at least 2 years for any of it to change.

[Deleted]

They said it themselves, they aren't going to switch the model to 15-man, because that would make *everyone* pissed - forcing 25m groups to break up, and unevenly at that, while kicking all the (most common) tight-roster 10m groups in the balls, esp. on low-pop servers. It would be a complete nightmare, the forums would explode, guilds would break up and lots of people interested in raiding would, for once, really actually quit over not being able to find a decent guild in this mess.

So we're stuck with 10 and 25 so far, and since higher ilvl for 25-mans is out of the question (which is a good thing, it wasn't a fair system for anyone, really), 25 will stay moribund. I, personally, would like to see it gone, just to curb all the utterly annoying drama about 25 being harder than 10 or vice versa, or 10 being "not real raiding", WFs not being "true" WFs if they're done on 10 and shit like that. But hey, some people *prefer* 25s, so I see no reason to not let them play 25s, if they love it so much and can handle the additional cat-herding and logistics required. After all it's a game, more ways to play = better. Not sure if any support is needed, or even warranted though, other than Realm First achies being split to 10 and 25.

[Deleted]

not sharing your opinion doesn't = wrong m8 : /