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  1. #1

    [MW] Will the Ember Primal Diamond meta gem be the better choice for 5.1?

    Before MoP was released, Sylvela (user @ MMO-Champion) did some rough maths on the potential mana gained from Ember Primal Diamond vs Revitalizing Primal Diamond (the meta gem most of us use).

    [Ember Primal Diamond] - (3360 Mana Every Minute)
    Keep in mind the variables, such as the Mana Tea usage, as this is what directly affects the mana regeneration for this gem. The value shown above is if Mana Tea is used on average every 15 seconds.

    Gives you 480 additional Mana per 2 stacks Mana Tea (Glyphed)
    It has a 10 sec Cooldown, I assume the player is using it every 15 secs (4 times per minute).
    4*480 = 1920mana per minute

    If you manage to use it everytime the cooldown falls off you will get:
    6*480 = 2880mana per minute

    But it also affects the manaregformula:
    combatreg=totalmana*0.02+(1.1287*Spi)
    Which means that you get 120 mp5 (=1440 mana per minute) bonus from the total mana.

    [Revitalizing Primal Diamond] - (2928 Mana Every Minute)
    According to the regenformula for level 90 (thanks to Icy Veins!):
    1 Spirit = 0,56435 mp5
    You will get 244 mp5 from the meta gem.
    244*12 = 2928 mana per minute
    The problem with these calculations, was that he/she assumed that a 2 stack mana tea could theoretically be used every 15 seconds but in reality, consuming a total of 8 chi for those 2 stacks of mana tea in a period of 15 seconds is a difficult condition to meet because of the gcds required to generate 8 chi and consume them and the fact that quite a few encounters have downtime meaning less healing required and less chi generated.

    My question is, with the changes to crit being able to affect our mana tea stacks, it will most likely be possible to consume a 2 stack mana tea on average every 15 seconds, perhaps even a lower average, so will this meta gem be the better choice for mana regen?

    Or, is the 3% increased critical effect from the 2nd meta gem too precious to lose?

  2. #2
    With Ember Primal Diamond and Ascension, if you use Mana Tea at CD (every 10 second) you'll get back +432 mana more per minute vs. Revitalizing Primal Diamond.
    Also, you'll get more mana during priest's Hymn of Hope.

    Btw, increase critical effect from RPD is ok, but with EPD you get more crit and spellpower.
    I think i will go for EPD :P
    &this.make(!sense);

  3. #3
    Without any mathematical proof, I think we are able to designate the meta gems in this order:

    Ember Primal Diamond - Best mana regen. meta gem
    Revitalizing Primal Diamond - Moderate throughput, moderate mana regen.
    Burning Primal Diamond - Best throughput meta gem

    This is because if you consider that monks are around 20% crit if they reforge to crit and that our critical heals should compose roughly 30 - 40% of our total healing, then the 3% increased critical effect is a big deal on our throughput.

    Personally, seeming as though my mana regen. isn't an issue (as of yet :-P), I will stick with RPD.

  4. #4
    Ember is best. If you can't generate 8 Chi in 15 seconds you're doing something wrong. Even when there's no raid damage you should be healing via eminence (Jab, Tiger Palm, Blackout Kick et al).

  5. #5
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Hi, this might sound noobish, but does anyone have the source for the formulas used ? I can't find them and quick IG tests show other results (but I might be wrong due to inapropriate way of calculate Spi/mp5 conversion).
    Thanks.

  6. #6
    Theres no reason to TP/jab/Blackout Kick if no damage is going out, which is...a lot of the time. Meaning assigning a specific value to mana regen based on +%mana is fight dependent. I use the burning primal diamond because mana for MW is so stupidly strong in 25s.
    Even if you used the 3360/min, thats a value of 448 spirit and the 216 int. The other meta is 432 spirit and 3% crit bonus. 3% crit bonus is a LOT larger throughput increase for me over 216 int. So basically you trade a huge throughput increase for 16 spirit...really not worth it. That being said, I still just using the burning primal diamond because I'm a throughput whore. Either way, if you place any semblance of value on throughput, the revitalizing is far better than ember. (Also, on most fights you'll likely get less than the quoted 448 spirit effective value, placing revitalizing FAR above ember in terms of overall choice.)
    Also to the guy talking about ascension: ascension just plain sucks, power strikes and chi brew are far better for regen AND give extra throughput. So...quoting ascension + the meta = wut????

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    Hi, this might sound noobish, but does anyone have the source for the formulas used ? I can't find them and quick IG tests show other results (but I might be wrong due to inapropriate way of calculate Spi/mp5 conversion).
    Thanks.
    http://talesofapriest.com/2012/06/09...d-mana-models/

    Only source I found which seemed credible.

    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    Theres no reason to TP/jab/Blackout Kick if no damage is going out, which is...a lot of the time. Meaning assigning a specific value to mana regen based on +%mana is fight dependent. I use the burning primal diamond because mana for MW is so stupidly strong in 25s.
    Even if you used the 3360/min, thats a value of 448 spirit and the 216 int. The other meta is 432 spirit and 3% crit bonus. 3% crit bonus is a LOT larger throughput increase for me over 216 int. So basically you trade a huge throughput increase for 16 spirit...really not worth it. That being said, I still just using the burning primal diamond because I'm a throughput whore. Either way, if you place any semblance of value on throughput, the revitalizing is far better than ember. (Also, on most fights you'll likely get less than the quoted 448 spirit effective value, placing revitalizing FAR above ember in terms of overall choice.)
    Also to the guy talking about ascension: ascension just plain sucks, power strikes and chi brew are far better for regen AND give extra throughput. So...quoting ascension + the meta = wut????
    Yeah... this thread is really old bro :-P

  8. #8
    I can't be held accountable for what I do in a trance sorry.

  9. #9
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Great ! Thank you very much Zonde. (I tried googling the 0.56435 part, but not the original formula ^^)

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Yorgl View Post
    Great ! Thank you very much Zonde. (I tried googling the 0.56435 part, but not the original formula ^^)
    Technically, we just say that spirit = 0.56435 mp5 because of the expression in the formula mentioned in the link:

    Combat Regen = Total Mana *0.02 +(1.1287*SPI*Meditation%)
    Spirit is equal to 1.1287 mp5 but spirit only increases mana regen. out of combat. However, with our passive as Mistweavers Mana Meditation it allows 50% of spirit's mp5 value to apply in combat, 0.56435 mp5.
    Last edited by Luqyolo; 2013-01-22 at 02:59 PM.

  11. #11
    Stood in the Fire Yorgl's Avatar
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    Yeah I figured that, and was implying (eventhough it's not obvious...) in my previous post.

    I left a comment on ToaP to ask to the guy if it's still the formula as it's been a while since he posted. I'll try to figure that out myself or with help from ppl here and on EJ because if the formula is right, I found some intersting things about optimizing a MW (in short : Asc > PS and Gnome is the best race :P I still have to confirm that though !).

    Edit : According to his armory, he's still raiding so let's hope.
    Last edited by Yorgl; 2013-01-22 at 03:04 PM.

  12. #12
    I can confirm that the formula is correct.

    With very simple tests to be fair. Got my character naked (filthy panda), and the combatregen displays 6,108 mp5, since I have 192 baseline spirit it gives me 216 mp5 out of combat and with the mistweaver passive it will provide 108 mp5 in combat. Therefore the 6,000 mp5 can be explained by the expression: "Total Mana*0.02".

    As for the mp5 value of spirit, if you divide the increased mana regen. value by your spirit you should obtain the value presented. In my case 12,891/11,421 = 1.1287 mp5 per point of spirit.

    You mentioned Ascension in your post and I don't know what you found (although I am interested) but I just feel the need to mention that Ascension does not modify your combatregen. Your total mana will remain 300k for the formula. This can easily be viewed in game.

  13. #13
    Ascension, even if it modifies combat regen, is still the absolute worst for mana regen, not to to mention that it gives no extra throughput comparing to chi brew or power strikes. (Seeing as I can run with 8k spirit and no mana problems, dunno why mana regen is important in the first place at the cost of such a large increase in throughput for chi brew. Power strikes is average, average increase isn't very helpful. Chi Brew is burst, making it extremely useful.)

    Feel free to show math or proof and prove me wrong, but the math's been done by many before, so unless you're adding something special which changes it, presumably relating to these meta's, then you're likely making an incorrect assumption somewhere.

  14. #14
    All chi brew adepts advocate it's better mana regen by blatant declaration of it giving "36k free mana" because apparently free chi is "chi you'd get anyway". The funniest thing, if you do that, then that is it. Chi brew is ONLY 36k mana per 90 seconds. But, as you all can see above, they count the same effect of chi brew second time, as a "free throughput", because hey, why not, it is free, right? And the last thing. They also accout the extra mana tea stacks from "free" chi and add it to the "chi brew mana regen". Amazing how their brains work, really.
    Last edited by Mithfin; 2013-01-22 at 08:53 PM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithfin View Post
    All chi brew adepts advocate it's better mana regen by blatant declaration of it giving "36k free mana" because apparently free chi is "chi you'd get anyway". The funniest thing, if you do that, then that is it. Chi brew is ONLY 36k mana per 90 seconds. But, as you all can see above, they count the same effect of chi brew second time, as a "free throughput", because hey, why not, it is free, right? And the last thing. They also accout the extra mana tea stacks from "free" chi and add it to the "chi brew mana regen". Amazing how their brains work, really.
    Yeah maybe they should add some mechanic that gives us a little regen after spending around 4 chi.

  16. #16
    Sigh. Look. If you count chi brew use as +36k mana, then it itself levels you out with you not using chi brew. You have 4 chi after the chi brew. You have 4 chi after spending 36k mana. Then it is all the same. Same throughput, same mana tea stacks. Do you understand?

    Chi Brew is a burst cooldown with a very little mana regen attached. Or it is 2000 mp5 in terms of pure mana gain. You CAN'T combine those two ways of valuation, or you will take into account the same thing twice.
    Last edited by Mithfin; 2013-01-22 at 09:26 PM.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mithfin View Post
    Sigh. Look. If you count chi brew use as +36k mana, then it itself levels you out with you not using chi brew. You have 4 chi after the chi brew. You have 4 chi after spending 36k mana. Then it is all the same. Same throughput, same mana tea stacks. Do you understand?

    Chi Brew is a burst cooldown with a very little mana regen attached. Or it is 2000 mp5 in terms of pure mana gain. You CAN'T combine those two ways of valuation, or you will take into account the same thing twice.
    Yeah I stopped trying to argue against that ages ago. Every single person that argues for Chi Brew attaches this weird recursive loop where because it gives you Chi, somehow that's worth more mana than what you'd actually spend to get that Chi. What's more is that people attribute 4 Chi as being 36k mana, plus 12k from mana tea, and then I've seen people try to equate THAT into extra Chi. It's mind-boggling.

    In reality, Jab costs 6,000 mana (factoring in that 1 Chi returns 3k mana), but Chi Brew still gives us the Mana Tea equivalent, meaning it gives us 6k mana per Chi, plus 3k Mana for the Mana Tea conversion.... which is 9,000 mana. So saying that Chi Brew is worth any more than 9,000 mana per Chi is absolutely ridiculous. It does give you 4 free GCDs which makes it nice for burst, but in terms of mana regeneration it's only 36k per 90 seconds.

    Now, about Ascension, to get 36k mana from Ascension in 90 seconds (ignoring the extra 45k we get at first, since Chi Brew can also theoretically give its 36k at the start and it's simpler to look at it this way), we'll boil this down to mana per 10 seconds, as that's what Glyphed Mana Tea is and can give us a better look at average mana gains.

    Chi Brew: 4,000 mana every 10 seconds (36k/90)
    Base Mana Tea = 12,000 Mana per stack, or 24,000 every 10 seconds.

    The 15% increase from Mana Tea would be 3,600 Mana every 10 seconds.

    Now, we could go into the whole "oh but you don't use that much Mana Tea throughout the fight" and then we'd go back to "But using Chi Brew on cooldown is probably wasting that Chi if you're not waiting for an optimal moment to use the burst" and have a war over that. However, rather than arguing about what amounts to a 400ish Spirit difference let's just call them even because they both have differences in utility.

    Chi Brew gives great burst in a short period of time. However, for it to maintain its mana efficiency it can't go more than 15 or 20 seconds on cooldown without being used, only gives Chi (which is limited in how it can be used), and doesn't do anything for the inbetween moments when it is on cooldown.

    Ascension gives extra mana throughout the fight, which you can use whenever you want, however you want. It also allows up to 5 Chi to be stored, which gives us ample opportunity to store up for big moments without needing them to be 1.5-2 minutes apart (Crushes, Dissonance Fields, Get Away!, things of that nature). That said, it leaves us without a "I want to do more healing" cooldown besides Revival.

    Personally, I think the difference in how they are used is worth a lot more in terms of optimization than a pittance of Spirit worth of mana regeneration. If a fight's timers work well for Chi Brew, go with it. If stuff is a bit more sporadic or random, or you just like having more freedom in your healing, go with Ascension. The whole "LOL CHI BREW SO MUCH BETTER THAN ASCENSION" or "LOL 15% MORE MANA IS KING" debate is just plain stupid, so let's end it here.

    On a side note, Power Strikes is neither likely to be used on cooldown or provides burst, so seriously, please don't bother using it. It's pretty awful.

  18. #18
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Holy cow Mithfin, Total, I love you guys. I was making this argument back in the old sticky months ago but kept getting shot down by the "it's mana you would have spent anyways" line of reasoning.

  19. #19
    Oh just to expound on that question even further (since we've hijacked this necro'd thread), the difference between Chi Brew and Ascension mana gains is so small that using Expel Harm on cooldown in place of a Jab every 15 seconds (which will save you 1500 mana, or 1,000 mana every 10 seconds) is more than double the difference between Ascension and Chi Brew. So yeah, play smart, use talents for how they feel and their uses, not some contrived mathematical argument as to why one is 10% better than the other.

  20. #20
    Whilst I generally like your arguments Total, you're neglecting too many variables which ultimately need to be considered.

    First of all, the mp5 value of these talents are calculated using the real mana cost of Jab, which is 11,700 mana, the 9k unglyphed version is not intentional and should've been fixed a long time ago (please avoid arguments on that, kthx). The value of free chi is used regarding Jab but in practice it really depends on the encounter and the chi generator you will use the most. Hell, on Garalon I could say that the average cost of my chi will be around 20k since quite a lot of my chi will be generated by SCK. Obviously, this will immediately increase the relative value of chi brew.

    Secondly, you're not taking into consideration crit, since those 4 chi consumed by chi brew have a chance equal to your crit to generate 2 stacks of mana tea and return 24,000 mana. This value will increase with higher crit levels and for a monk with 20% crit this value is quoted as 3,400 mp5. Now you can see, with two logical assumptions the value of chi brew is immediately a lot higher than the 4,000 mana every 10 seconds and 36,000 mana every 90 seconds that you quoted.

    Lastly, Ascension's mp5 value is calculated assuming 2 stacks of mana tea used on cooldown. This is an assumption which simplifies calculations but it must be recognized that a 2 stack mana tea will not be consumed on average every 10 sec. The same goes for chi brew, using it on cooldown is not sensible or optimal in some situations since it is also regarded as a throughput cooldown. To balance the argument, Ascension's mp5 value also depends on your raid group composition. Getting Mana Hymn's and Innervates will also boost the mp5 value of Ascension and this is not easy to quantify but it must nevertheless be included in a rational argument.

    Ultimately, I do agree Ascension has its uses but this comment should demonstrate that in terms of mp5 it doesn't compete with PS or chi brew. Please, before nuking me consider that a level 45 tier doesn't need to have 3 competitive talents. For example, it has been shown that even in optimal conditions RJW doesn't compete in HPM or HPS with chi torpedo, and it's a damn T90 talent.
    Last edited by Luqyolo; 2013-01-23 at 12:53 PM.

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