To the rogues that waited for 5.1...

[Shaderas]

rogues are fine.. they were op every expansion and they are decent now.. not great but decent.. skilled rogues are still viable in comps.. you just really have to try.. no more facerolling.

Less than 1% (before 5.1) representation is viable? Smarter and better PVP players than us have decided to change classes rather than make Rogues work in a comp. What do you think that says?


That being said, we'll have to see where representation lies after 5.1. I don't see it going up much, everything thing that a Rogue does is done better by other classes. We still probably be taken for smoke bombs in RBGs though.

[Dcruize]

We still probably be taken for smoke bombs in RBGs though.

I can no longer get a CRZ team on my rogue since 5.1, neither can the other RBG rogues I know - why bother with a smoke bomb when you can just RoF+chaos-wave your way to victory?

[kosechi]

Right, it's from September 28th, 3 days after Mists of Pandaria launch - after like 6 months of beta and level 90 experience that went unaddressed in the 5.0.4 patch. What was true then, was true right up to 5.1 - it's where he first announced this planned change to pvp power as well, and who it was meant to address.

i'm not sure how a post about balance 3 days after launch with no active arena season could possibly be relevant. those 6 months of testing, all the time on the ptr sure didn't predict a lot of the issues so far this season.

was ret healing a problem in S11? yes, most defiantly, but it paled in comparison to the problems with casters and rogues that season. is ret healing a problem in S12? no, absolutely not, all of the things that made it so powerful last season have been removed or reworked, and whats more it pales in comparison with the problems with casters, warriors, druids, hunters and mmr exploiters this season.

[Deleted]

in what world have you lived,rogues have been op since like forever...its only been since the pre-expansion patch and the expansion itself that rogues have been nerfed.
and you know what,its not so bad,rogues have been too good for a very long time

I must ask, what world have you lived in? I've played almost all classes to 80, stopped playing before Cataclysm was released but I NEVER, EVER saw rogues as being problematic except against players who was nowhere close to as good as the rogue they fought against and then blaming the rogue class for winning. DKs were beyond problematic for me when I started playing arena again in wotlk, I gave up on my priest due to how strong DKs were at the beginning and resorted to playing my mage & paladin. The only problem I had with rogues was the FoK spec, when that was nerfed they were not a problem anymore.

Not all players are playing at a high level of skill, most are pretty bad or at best around average.

[Deleted]

in what world have you lived,rogues have been op since like forever...its only been since the pre-expansion patch and the expansion itself that rogues have been nerfed.
and you know what,its not so bad,rogues have been too good for a very long time

Overpowered like forever? I can agree that rogues were too strong in the later parts of cataclysm and in s3+s4. Other than that i can only remember early s6 2s beeing infested with Priest/Rogue teams due to 2s still giving Gladiator and priests beeing overpowered since they were buffed in 3.1.

[Windmiller]

Well, as mentioned - get gear. I played as resto shaman in full upgraded Dreadful set + Malevolent bracers, sitting on 60.66% resi/340k HP in Twin Peaks when i get sapped with my trinket on CD. I know its not the best gear, but i would not call it complete crap either

Then vendetta debuff appeared and rogue going full out with shadowblades killed me within a amazingly executed stunlock/control. Did he get lucky? Maybe. But it *can* be done and rogue damage is not that shit. One might argue that it was random BG and it does not matter, but I'm only addressing the "rogues dont do any damage and are total" statements. Good rogues can still deliver pwnage. And good rogue on a healer is the most annoying thing that can happen. Granted if you just tunnel mutilates/bstabs you are not taking full advantage of your class.

So in my eyes rogues are not underpowered. They might need some tweaks here and there but class is not broken.

[Dcruize]

Well, as mentioned - get gear. I played as resto shaman in full upgraded Dreadful set + Malevolent bracers, sitting on 60.66% resi/340k HP in Twin Peaks when i get sapped with my trinket on CD. I know its not the best gear, but i would not call it complete crap either

Then vendetta debuff appeared and rogue going full out with shadowblades killed me within a amazingly executed stunlock/control. Did he get lucky? Maybe. But it *can* be done and rogue damage is not that shit. One might argue that it was random BG and it does not matter, but I'm only addressing the "rogues dont do any damage and are total" statements. Good rogues can still deliver pwnage. And good rogue on a healer is the most annoying thing that can happen. Granted if you just tunnel mutilates/bstabs you are not taking full advantage of your class.

So in my eyes rogues are not underpowered. They might need some tweaks here and there but class is not broken.

The situation you described is 'rogue with full CDs going 1v1 vs rshaman with no trinket'. What DPS class couldn't have killed you? You're right about the damage though - rogue burst isn't bad at all, but what is bad is rogue mobility, sustained damage (outside of combat) and survivability vs non-healers.

[Windmiller]

As i said - some people were complaining that rogue damage is complete crap - was only referring to that. And i did state that i do agree rogues could use some tweaking, even though good ones are formiddable opponents through burst and control.

If I came across saying "OMG L2P" that was not my intention, just sharing my *personal* experience with rogues, not trying to start a flamewar.

As for your question - I could probably have survived few other dps classes which lack your control toolkit. But again - not calling all rogues baddies who cant use their class. Though i have to admit that it scares me if they would buff your sustained damage. mobility -sure, rogues should be all about mobility. But I dont miss the old days when seeing a rogue was a death sentance

Then again usually I play ele, so im a free kill most of the time

[Verain]

Yea, rogue damage isn't really the issue. It's by no means amazing, but damage inside shadow blades is quite good, as is damage during find weakness. They don't exactly stack together that well (the primary effect of shadow blades is turning your white attacks into yellow attacks that ignore armor, and find weakness is an armor debuff), but they DO stack together, and do more damage. But we need a large cooldown and nearly perfect setup to make that happen, and our damage without all that is very mediocre.

But even that would be fine if we had effective ways of staying on target and staying alive.

Thus far, I've been pleased with the blind and vanish unnerfs. They do make a difference.

[Deleted]

I think you mean no decent quantity of players submitted valuable and clearly researched data to developers during beta.... which (hey!) is the typical issue. It comes down to "Do I want to try to learn fights before everyone else or should I provide valuable class balancing feedback?".

Like the players are supposed to work for Blizzard or something if they got access to beta and actually have to submit "valuable and researched data". That's your reasoning I see and it is mistaken. Those that get beta access only help Blizzard with stress-testing and bugs so the game can be stable at launch.

Anything extra is optional imo and the proper testing (abilities, class balance etc.) should be done by Blizzard employees. But probably Blizz also goes by your reasoning lately, hence firing 600+ ppl. Why pay QA and testers when players can do it for free?