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  1. #41
    aGit i understand it was an upgrade but it was almost nonexistent upgrade when for me with my valor boost it would have been GIGANTIC (note the caps :P)

    but ya im not implying at all that it wasnt an upgrade for him it was just so small that it doesnt make sense for all and it makes it disheartening to continue raiding with people who agree but just wont do anything about it. makes it seem like raiding doesnt matter much which makes me not want to waste my time doing it with people who arent worried about progress and just worried about a tiny upgrade ("Hey i went up one ilvl and our dps still cant get his dps up cause i took his main source of increasing his dps")

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:05 AM ----------

    lahlah i told you before i did that on my shaman last expac and its the minor increase from professions is not comparable to the increase a fury warrior gets from weapons so ill be fine with BS and mining on my warrior its not even close to comparing a weapon increase for fury warriors

  2. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    This weapon, I take it.

    Scimitar of Seven Stars

    Logic should(note, *SHOULD*) dictate that a DPS should get it over a tank imo.
    I don't see any valid reason why DPS should have prio over tanks. There aren't "tank weapons" in the game. Logic should(note, *SHOULD*) dictate that to person who gets biggest upgrade from it.

  3. #43
    If I got the weapon no questions asked next time it dropped I'd be patient. Sure it would piss off anyone that your loot system doesn't prioritize dps over tanks. In my opinion it really should but for your guild it doesn't work that way. Wanting to leave a guild over loot is a maturity issue more than anything else. If your unhappy with progress and you want to compete with stronger players than I'd guild hop over that.

  4. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Noujou View Post
    such a lackluster and bad argument

    @OP yes i do think you should leave it, because a tank that (abet even a blood dk) that takes a weapon over a dps, especially if its a bigger upgrade is asshole tank, therefore i think you should leave OP
    There are no pure tanking weapons in this expansion, atleast not yet. I don't play the game so i can gear you up. It is silly to suggest that people who have all the right to roll on a weapon shouldn't because someone think dps should have it first. I'm not saying i deserve the weapon more than the dps, i'm saying that we should be equal. Anything short of equal, and it'd be grounds for me as a tank to leave the guild for another one.

  5. #45
    that is a fair response suizid i get that i feel the same way its just when the SHOULD doesnt happen that emotion kicks in and commitment seems less desirable especially on illidan where i can pug as far as we are getting

  6. #46
    Mechagnome Gritalian's Avatar
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    Theres a couple different issues here. One is who should get the weapon the other is how your raid/guild is organized.

    As a Prot Warrior, similar to a Prot Paladin, I'd argue that weapon should go to the tank first. It's a upgrade in stamina and mastery with only a .08% drop off in hit compared to the Elegion, the Fanged Crescent. It's socket is a blue, for a 240 stam gem, and it's socket bonus is a +mastery. Our current priority is Hit&Exp to 7.5%>Mastery>Parry>Dodge. Making that weapon feature 2 of our 3 must have stats.

    As a fury Warrior, mastery is further down on your priority, barely sitting above extra hit.

    I'd also point out that your tank getting better gear gives your healers more of a cushion to heal, which trickles down to being able to keep the raid alive longer. Unless you guys are hitting enrage timers left and right, overall its more beneficial from a progression standpoint to go to the tank.

    So ultimately, it is probably best it went to the tank. Now, we're only getting one side of the story... maybe your officers also felt it was best to go to the tank and had a poor way of presenting the information to you or lacked the skills to do so in a persuasive way to let you understand their reasoning. Or perhaps they are just poorly running the raid. I'm not sure how much time I would invest in a raid that had open rolls as it shows a complete lack of leadership and is really just the lazy way of doing this, since it doesnt require the raid leader of officers to understand all the classes present in his/her raid.

    Back in TBC, when I played a Warlock and was our raids top 3 DPS in the majority of fights, I lost a Chronicle of Dark Secrets to a mage who hadn't raided consistently since Karazhan, simply because he was a part of the officers 10m Kara group back in the day. This was after they handed tier 5 gloves to a new recruit Hunter after I was the sole Warlock who geared himself in order to tank Leo. It was at that point that I realize the guild I was in wasn't interested in achieving the same goals as me; I wanted to push content as it was being released, they wanted to have relaxing nights and didn't care if gear wasn't to those who'd help push the raid.

    If you feel you're in a situation where the guild isn't operating at the level you want it to be and you have the options to join a guild that does, then I think that's grounds for leaving. However if you feel like leaving simply because you lost out on a weapon, that, at the very least is as good for the tank as it is for you (and I'd argue it being better for the tank), then I think you need to take a day and think about if you want to help be a part of a raid group or if you simply want gear, because there is a difference.

  7. #47
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    aGit i understand it was an upgrade but it was almost nonexistent upgrade when for me with my valor boost it would have been GIGANTIC (note the caps :P)
    but basing your benefit of the weapon off your valor and excluding his potential to upgrade it is extremely biased.

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  8. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    aGit i understand it was an upgrade but it was almost nonexistent upgrade when for me with my valor boost it would have been GIGANTIC (note the caps :P)

    but ya im not implying at all that it wasnt an upgrade for him it was just so small that it doesnt make sense for all and it makes it disheartening to continue raiding with people who agree but just wont do anything about it. makes it seem like raiding doesnt matter much which makes me not want to waste my time doing it with people who arent worried about progress and just worried about a tiny upgrade ("Hey i went up one ilvl and our dps still cant get his dps up cause i took his main source of increasing his dps")

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:05 AM ----------

    lahlah i told you before i did that on my shaman last expac and its the minor increase from professions is not comparable to the increase a fury warrior gets from weapons so ill be fine with BS and mining on my warrior its not even close to comparing a weapon increase for fury warriors
    489 to 496 is an upgrade. The socket on the sword is huge. You have 489 and a 483 weapons. The situation is quite similar imo, you both had right to roll on it. and it would have been almost equal upgrade for both.

  9. #49
    i can see your point on it being an upgrade for him but you left out the part where weapon damage is huge for warriors and like i mentioned our healers arent having issues. we are close to hitting enrage on garalon every week although we got him this week without it but we also had a pug fire mage that did 30k more dps then anyone else in the raid.

    As far as the officers responding one told me that he thought it was stupid that the tank got it over me as he knew it was much bigger upgrade for me and the GM said "its loot rules" which i know is reasonable on his part but thats also part of why i am considering leaving since i dont believe those loot rules are set up the way i think they should and im not sure i am ok with continuing with them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:18 AM ----------

    aGit its not just on valor the weapon would have been a better upgrade for me without the valor bonus but with it its a massive bonus and when i said that he got all defensive and acted like he couldnt hear any of the conversation until he logged

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    I would really like some serious advice on if i should continue with my raiding guild, heres the run down on why im considering leaving.

    The people for the most part are people i like raiding with but one of our tanks is almost incompetent he takes forever to learn encounters, and he rolls on gear which is minor upgrade for him when it is a huge increase for dps. (healers arent having issues keeping him alive btw.)

    Tonight we downed amber shaper for the first time and the weapon that i need as a fury warrior dropped. I have an axe off elegon and a LFR sword from terrace. I also have 1400 valor to upgrade this weapon ive been waiting for sitting there and spent the whole raid waiting for that one item. When it dropped the tank (who sucks and is really holding our raid back in the first place and who is using a 489 elegon axe already) needed it because it had "more stam" and won and since we are using a roll system for some reason it went to him.

    Im guessing most of you can see the issue here when i asked why he needed it and said i think its dumb that he would even consider taking it over me he said i guess im dumb and wouldnt respond anymore at all. I just feel like this isn't good for advancement at all my GM said you can get it next time it drops which is a bad response since its not guaranteed obviously since i ran msv 6 full clears before going onto only HOF and the only time i got the weapon was from a token. i just feel like this isnt worth my time anymore.

    thanks for the opinions either good or bad lay it on me straight just dont troll please i want serious opinions only please.
    Leaving because of gear is kind of high maintenance imo. Gear will come. By the time T15 hits, everyone will be decked out. If you want a "Whoever has the lowest ilvl wins item" guild, then join one that uses loot council. But honestly, I think you would have a problem with that as well. You would probably try to rationalize your way to getting pieces that you want. You're doing it right now. Let's see:

    A) You have valor points saved up for "That specific item"
    B) He sucks, and you deserve it more
    C) You have an entitlement complex

    You'r going to rationalize your way to what you want. ANd like it or not, that tank helped you guys get your kill. You're being childish.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  11. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    This weapon, I take it.

    Scimitar of Seven Stars

    Logic should(note, *SHOULD*) dictate that a DPS should get it over a tank imo.
    Actually that's an insanely good prot pally weapon.

  12. #52
    If I got a euro for every roll complaint I've seen over the years I'd be a millionaire.

    During all our raiding years together (been in the same guild as a co-gm for 5 years), we've had so many players who threw hissy fits over items they thought they needed over other people. We've tried loot council (which is basically what we're still doing in some form), we've tried giving people option to make a wishlist, etc. We've never had DKP, because that would seriously undermine our chances of raiding. The people who do not raid often would be disappointed because they would never have enough DKP and would likely stop showing altogether which means no raids for anyone.

    In ICC times we had a much bigger roster than currently, and seeing we're very casual the change in players in raids was huge. Some people thought they got shafted when people who didn't raid quite as often as they did got gear they felt they deserved. This lead to quite a bit of drama and most of the people who did the crying left the server. We were actually happy to see them go, even if that left a huge gap and forced us out of 25s. The roster we had left understood that loot is only pixels and was actually quite happy to hand over pieces to the less-geared.

    Which is pretty much how we handle things today. The raid leader and I (we are effectively leading the guild together at this point) try to interfere as little as possible, and the most stable members of our roster have played with us long enough to know we need the whole raid team in about equal gear to progress the best we can. People ask before they roll, they trade pieces with each other if they feel the other person needs it more. We've been going with the simple Need = main spec, Greed = off-spec, pass if neither applies since the drama in ICC.

    In your situation, I don't think it was handled the best, but in the end all I can say is that its just pixels. I've passed on enough loot I need to gear my druid twice over, but it has helped someone else more. The tank sounds a bit thick, and if he's game breaking for you, move on. He won't change unless someone forces him to, and it doesn't sound like your GM will be of any help in that. If you can tolerate the tank because the rest of the guildies you like, just get over the weapon for now and get it when it drops again.

  13. #53
    Why would he need to mention that weapon dmg is huge for warriors? Weapon dmg has always been huge for any melee dps so stating the obvious isn't necessary. It's also pretty obvious that you both would've benefited from the weapon so leaving a guild over a piece of loot that isn't necessarily a total shaft to you (because the person who won it does get a decent benefit from it as an upgrade) is silly. However, leaving a guild for loot council is a good idea but don't be mad when you lose out on tier gear to healers and tanks first.

  14. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    i can see your point on it being an upgrade for him but you left out the part where weapon damage is huge for warriors and like i mentioned our healers arent having issues. we are close to hitting enrage on garalon every week although we got him this week without it but we also had a pug fire mage that did 30k more dps then anyone else in the raid.

    As far as the officers responding one told me that he thought it was stupid that the tank got it over me as he knew it was much bigger upgrade for me and the GM said "its loot rules" which i know is reasonable on his part but thats also part of why i am considering leaving since i dont believe those loot rules are set up the way i think they should and im not sure i am ok with continuing with them.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 07:18 AM ----------

    aGit its not just on valor the weapon would have been a better upgrade for me without the valor bonus but with it its a massive bonus and when i said that he got all defensive and acted like he couldnt hear any of the conversation until he logged
    I looked at yours and his armory. He didn't want it because it "had more stam". It's an excellent tanking weapon. AND you have a sha touched weapon. ANd the elegon weapon. Seriously. Do not be like this.
    Perfect example of why "community" forums are poisonous to the health of a development team. These developers are wasting hundreds of hours trying to stem the tide of incessant bitchery that would never, ever abate so long as these entitled, unfortunate human beings don't get their way.

  15. #55
    i can see your point starfighter and i may be acting childish but at the end of the day if i keep raiding with this guild and we hit an enrage timer the thing that is gonna keep popping in my mind is "hey maybe if the tank hadnt taken a weapon he really didnt need over the dps that needed we wouldnt hit enrage timers.

    and dennis if you read my other posts im not saying its a bad tank weapon im saying its a minor upgrade for him and a much better one for a fury warrior.

    Also i just armoried him and he put Dancing steel on it which seems wrong to me maybe a prot paladin can comment on why you would enchant dancing steel as a tank?

  16. #56
    Herald of the Titans Dannyl's Avatar
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    I don't see any issues here. Like it has already been said, the sword is an upgrade for the tank and just as much a weapon for him as it is for you. All I really hear is whining from someone who is bitter that he lost a loot roll, and the reasons you give are pretty absurd; basically a) he is a bad player and b) because the weapon is supposedly more important to you then it is for him. I could understand the second argument, if there was a real, noticeable difference between the weapons you have, but there isn't.

    Aside from that, it is also pretty absurd to complain about the loot system in your guild, since when you agreed to play with them, you subscribed that loot is indeed distributed by need / greed rolls. You complain about the rules of the game after being fully aware of how they were defined. It is equally unreasonable to then go to your GM, talk his ears off about it and what, demand that he demands the tank to give you the item? That's absurd.

    Should they maybe make changes to the loot system, perhaps but you don't change those rules retrospectively every time one of your players is butt hurt over a bad roll. Of course, whether you leave over this issue or not, is entirely up to you. If you feel the guild doesn't deserve you or their rules are "unfair," then yes, you should leave. But that's entirely beside the point who deserved or didn't deserve the item.
    Last edited by Dannyl; 2012-11-28 at 07:28 AM.

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  17. #57
    Sorry man but its a tanking weapon and you shouldnt even need on it in the first place (atleast not before tank). Check out the stats, check out the gem... I think you might be the one crybaby for loot that is holding your guild back, because obviusly you have no clue about simplest game mechanics if you want this sword just because its 496ilvl (I dont rly see any other valid reason why would u need it before tank otherwise).

  18. #58
    Back in my early raiding days there was a priority for loot: tank > healer > dps. Nobody complained.

  19. #59
    Haha it's funny how someone can try to rationalize stuff to such a point because they're pissed at losing a piece of loot that they believe they're entitled to it ...go get some sleep, wake up tomorrow, you won't care so much.

  20. #60
    The Lightbringer Seranthor's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    i can see your point starfighter and i may be acting childish but at the end of the day if i keep raiding with this guild and we hit an enrage timer the thing that is gonna keep popping in my mind is "hey maybe if the tank hadnt taken a weapon he really didnt need over the dps that needed we wouldnt hit enrage timers.

    and dennis if you read my other posts im not saying its a bad tank weapon im saying its a minor upgrade for him and a much better one for a fury warrior.

    Also i just armoried him and he put Dancing steel on it which seems wrong to me maybe a prot paladin can comment on why you would enchant dancing steel as a tank?
    Maybe you should just leave then, seems that is your predetermined course already, You dont really want to play nice with your guild, and as the others you think you are better and more entitled. Saddle up and head out and see if you can get yourself into another guild that will 'give' you what you think you are entitled to.

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