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  1. #141
    You knew loot rules in advance? Were they completely followed? Because if you follow MS>OS, you have every right to complain about breaking it - SoSS is not a tanking weapon with its pathetic stamina, but if you use a simple roll then, well, luck just was not on your side and you should've complained about rules before raid, not after.

  2. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by rowaasr13 View Post
    You knew loot rules in advance? Were they completely followed? Because if you follow MS>OS, you have every right to complain about breaking it - SoSS is not a tanking weapon with its pathetic stamina, but if you use a simple roll then, well, luck just was not on your side and you should've complained about rules before raid, not after.
    Pathetic stamina compared to what? All one-handed 496 weapons have 486 or 487 stamina. There's also a rather nice blue socket there and hit/mastery are excellent stats for both prot pallies and prot warriors.

    As with many things though, the issue only becomes an issue when it becomes an issue so I don't fault the guy as much for that. Thinking about how the loot is done isn't always on people's minds until it's too late.

    Further commenting about the OP: If you want a good response from someone, don't call them dumb. Insulting people tends to make them not want to work with you. If you had been a bit more amicable you might have been able to make him think your opinion was worth considering and potentially have gotten the weapon.
    Last edited by Jackalope; 2012-11-28 at 09:42 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  3. #143
    Not trying to hijack the thread but the reason I was a bit harsh before is that I came a across another similar situation. Similar regarding to raging from the guy that did not get the loot but in a different setting...

    I play frost DK. I had 463 2H weapon (as most of us when we started) and I played frost. I had also a blue one hand 463 in my bags just in case. And this "case" turned up, as we killed Elegon normal back then and I used a coin hoping to get the 2H. I ended up with the 1H axe. So I switched (aka regemmed, reforged etc) to DW frost. I do not like DW style that much but I did it since I had better weapon for it. And I got it using a coin.

    Fast forward... I got the second 1H axe from another Elegon kill since the DK tank took the 2H sword. (we are using DKP system). I said nothing. More fast forward, to Sha of Fear normal. Well, guess what. 2x2H Axes dropped. One went to warrior (he had the dkp and is an excellent player) and the other was mine. The tank who had already -xxxx DKPs since he does not do any dailies (that means no rep pieces -->no coins-->all gear from raids) demanded to get it since "I am DW frost dk". I explained that I am NOT a DW dk. I was just playing DW because these were the weapons I got first.

    This guy wanted to be treated in a special way (he had much less dkp and still wanted priority) against guild loot rules... just because... he is an officer maybe. Well, he is still in the guild of course, never expressed any urge to leave because of it (and this is the right reaction in my opinion) but he just pouted for a day or two.

    After 8 years playing this game, my opinion is... If you want to avoid drama, have rules and stick to it with NO EXCEPTIONS. Rules do not have to be harsh or something. Just some rules that apply to anyone equally. If you start with bs like "this player sucks, he does not deserve it" you are wrong. If you feel a player does not deserve loot from your raid, do not invite him. You cannot waste his time in a raid and then tell him he will not get loot. It is not right.

    And that brings us to the second thingy.... Even as loot council (which is wrong IMO since there are other factors in this such us likes/dislikes towards a particular person etc) try to have a way to measure what you need to measure to distribute loot. Either performance (which is not just XXmil dmg done since encounters are best suited for particular classes) or items received per reset or whatever. Be fair!

  4. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Pathetic stamina? There's a rather nice blue socket there and hit/mastery are excellent stats for both prot pallies and prot warriors.
    Sorry, was judging from DK point. I don't know why I assumed so, especially with it being one-hand. Silly me.

    Oh well, this, of course, makes MS>OS point invalid. Rest stays: you knew rules. Complain about them before raid if you want, but once you've agreed - shut up in middle of raid, you have no right to complain just because this particular time result of those rules is not to your liking.

  5. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    And that brings us to the second thingy.... Even as loot council (which is wrong IMO since there are other factors in this such us likes/dislikes towards a particular person etc) try to have a way to measure what you need to measure to distribute loot. Either performance (which is not just XXmil dmg done since encounters are best suited for particular classes) or items received per reset or whatever. Be fair!
    The description I've typically heard of "loot council" is that whoever is in the council tries to figure out who would put something to use best, or at least decently if the one who could use it best has something equal or better. Usually this is based less on liking or disliking the person and more on how they perform, what their upgrades would be, and how that impacts the raid overall.

    What kind of loot council are you used to, exactly?
    Last edited by Jackalope; 2012-11-28 at 09:50 AM. Reason: Typo
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  6. #146
    Few things:

    If you're hitting enrage on NORMALS it isn't an issue of one weapon. It's an ability issue. This is obviously a 10man guild so using DKP like others suggest is just pointless as you have very few items that overlap. Using /roll for a 10man isn't that awful and you would be suprised at how many 10mans use /roll. Also how a guild does loot doesn't equal the success the raid will have. I have seen some really shit guilds that have the most complicated loot rules ever. In fact the top 3 guilds on my server just use /roll and call it a day.

    As a healer I think you're fibbing quite a bit when you say this tank is awful. Most awful tanks healers struggle to keep them up, but you said this isn't the case. I think you made this fib up to get the "He sucks and doesn't deserve loot" vote on your side. If you're going to lie show us a whole stream of your raid so we can can't the mistakes he makes vs the mistakes you make.

    You're being a bit of a cry baby and just should have let it go. Gear only matters to about 20%, the other 80% is skill and strat. Also leaving the guild over loot issues raises a lot of flags to decent guilds btw.

  7. #147
    Quote Originally Posted by Cahayla View Post
    I would really like some serious advice on if i should continue with my raiding guild, heres the run down on why im considering leaving.

    The people for the most part are people i like raiding with but one of our tanks is almost incompetent he takes forever to learn encounters, and he rolls on gear which is minor upgrade for him when it is a huge increase for dps. (healers arent having issues keeping him alive btw.)

    Tonight we downed amber shaper for the first time and the weapon that i need as a fury warrior dropped. I have an axe off elegon and a LFR sword from terrace. I also have 1400 valor to upgrade this weapon ive been waiting for sitting there and spent the whole raid waiting for that one item. When it dropped the tank (who sucks and is really holding our raid back in the first place and who is using a 489 elegon axe already) needed it because it had "more stam" and won and since we are using a roll system for some reason it went to him.

    Im guessing most of you can see the issue here when i asked why he needed it and said i think its dumb that he would even consider taking it over me he said i guess im dumb and wouldnt respond anymore at all. I just feel like this isn't good for advancement at all my GM said you can get it next time it drops which is a bad response since its not guaranteed obviously since i ran msv 6 full clears before going onto only HOF and the only time i got the weapon was from a token. i just feel like this isnt worth my time anymore.

    thanks for the opinions either good or bad lay it on me straight just dont troll please i want serious opinions only please.
    If you don't like the system of your guild, leave.
    As I read the post, that tank is still there and nobody objected on him needing on that drop.
    The rules are known, so you knew you would have to win the roll to get it.

    If the tank is as bad as you say...... you should have talked about it in the guild earlier. You now have an issue, now that he won the roll.
    I wonder if you would post this if you had won it?

  8. #148
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    Just a sidenote, elegon weapon is actually better for a prot paly since they need to reach exp / hit cap. Stamina is not important at all in the current tier for any tank, if your tank die it's more likely because of something else, either missing cooldowns or you're missing some mechanics. Especially on normal mode.

    But as Rayaleith pointed out, rules are there for these kind of dramas. Either avoid those kind of things beforehand or follow the rules afterwards. I'd say you'd better leave the guild if you're more concerned of your progression, while others in the raid apparently don't have a clue what they're doing. If it's just about l00t and epixxs, ...... gg.
    DPS is Science. Tanking is Skill. Healing is Art.

  9. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    Few things:

    If you're hitting enrage on NORMALS it isn't an issue of one weapon. It's an ability issue. This is obviously a 10man guild so using DKP like others suggest is just pointless as you have very few items that overlap. Using /roll for a 10man isn't that awful and you would be suprised at how many 10mans use /roll. Also how a guild does loot doesn't equal the success the raid will have. I have seen some really shit guilds that have the most complicated loot rules ever. In fact the top 3 guilds on my server just use /roll and call it a day.

    As a healer I think you're fibbing quite a bit when you say this tank is awful. Most awful tanks healers struggle to keep them up, but you said this isn't the case. I think you made this fib up to get the "He sucks and doesn't deserve loot" vote on your side. If you're going to lie show us a whole stream of your raid so we can can't the mistakes he makes vs the mistakes you make.

    You're being a bit of a cry baby and just should have let it go. Gear only matters to about 20%, the other 80% is skill and strat. Also leaving the guild over loot issues raises a lot of flags to decent guilds btw.
    Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, enrage timers weren't explicitly mentioned in the OP. It is, however, reasonable to infer that they're a bit of problem at times.

    It is possible the tank can survive decently once he has his shit together for the encounter, but getting him to that point is what's holding them back. I know I've had some issues on encounter mechanics but usually have my normal rotation down pat. Or he could just suck all around and not know how to tank as a pally (which is quite sad given the great guides here and on EJ). As a healer, I know you've seen a few too many sides of stupid. Regardless, I'm not so sure the whole "tank is a moron" thing is a central or totally intentional part of the argument though it certainly can contribute to others thinking that the one in conflict with the moron is the one in the right.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 03:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Elemen View Post
    Just a sidenote, elegon weapon is actually better for a prot paly since they need to reach exp / hit cap. Stamina is not important at all in the current tier for any tank, if your tank die it's more likely because of something else, either missing cooldowns or you're missing some mechanics. Especially on normal mode.
    Upon looking at them from the tank's view I'd probably take the scimitar actually. More total stats since it's possible to put a hit or hit/expertise gem in there for the socket bonus and reforge the mastery to expertise if it was really needed by that time. Chances are it would be dodge or parry getting reforged first though.

    One of their best gem changes was making hit blue.
    Last edited by Jackalope; 2012-11-28 at 10:13 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  10. #150
    Brewmaster Demetrion's Avatar
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    Loot council? DKP?

    That's all democracy bullshit which I'm not buying ever again. One too many times did I got burnt in the same cases as the OP and some other persons in this thread.

    Since I've started leading my guild in an dictatorship way, no one ever complained. I'm all looting systems in one. I decide who gets what and no one complained ever.

    In your situation OP, however, I would have done the same. Paladin would get the sword since, in future you will be replacing that sword with your BiS weapon where the paladin will get stuck with it.

  11. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, enrage timers weren't explicitly mentioned in the OP. It is, however, reasonable to infer that they're a bit of problem at times.
    Maybe not in his first post, but later he kept going on about how it would be horrible to reach enrage timers for him, since he would only be able to think about the tank taking his weapon, at the same time he also say they where actually not having any problems with enrage timers.

  12. #152
    Quote Originally Posted by Rayaleith View Post
    After 8 years playing this game, my opinion is... If you want to avoid drama, have rules and stick to it with NO EXCEPTIONS. Rules do not have to be harsh or something. Just some rules that apply to anyone equally. If you start with bs like "this player sucks, he does not deserve it" you are wrong. If you feel a player does not deserve loot from your raid, do not invite him. You cannot waste his time in a raid and then tell him he will not get loot. It is not right.
    Be fair!
    the "rules" is a trick made up by the GM and officers to convince thier guild mates that thier guild is just, and as they enforce the rules and punish the lower ranked ppl in the guild on one side to keep the raiding and the loot coming, they break it themself on the other..

    -check your guild bank money log and tell me you dont see the GM/officers mains and alts on that list
    -check your guild bank tabs logs of BOEs/herbs/mining/enchants/matirials and tell me you dont see the same alts power leveling thier proffs and enchanting thier gear as free as they want and taking any BOE as free as they want,
    -why arnt they on standby only except when they realy dont wana raid on a raid night? is it becouse the raid can not really take place without them? or they just want to be there for every loot and have infinite DKP to bid with?
    - why is every one still thinking they will get somwhere in wow if they lick the GM/officers ass day and night?

    and when somthing realy big happens that breaks a big rule by an officer or GM, arnt you getting an answer like "its my guild, take it or leave it?"

  13. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuji View Post
    This weapon, I take it.

    Scimitar of Seven Stars

    Logic should(note, *SHOULD*) dictate that a DPS should get it over a tank imo.
    IF the tank was a Warrior, I'd dare to say it is a BiS option, moreso then the 1h from Sha of Fear.

  14. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrion View Post
    Loot council? DKP?

    That's all democracy bullshit which I'm not buying ever again. One too many times did I got burnt in the same cases as the OP and some other persons in this thread.

    Since I've started leading my guild in an dictatorship way, no one ever complained. I'm all looting systems in one. I decide who gets what and no one complained ever.

    In your situation OP, however, I would have done the same. Paladin would get the sword since, in future you will be replacing that sword with your BiS weapon where the paladin will get stuck with it.
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=86219 versus http://www.wowhead.com/item=86387. It's actually a somewhat interesting comparison because the legendary gem grants strength which is 95% as good as parry for pure avoidance. 95% of 500 is 475, so it's interesting comparing the mastery versus parry and all that.
    Last edited by Jackalope; 2012-11-28 at 10:25 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  15. #155
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    To be honest, if you get shitty over people not giving you the loot you wanted then maybe raiding isn't for you with that kind of attitude. Raiding is more than just loot, it's challenging yourself and having a good time with the guild, not giving a crap with loot not being your first priority. If fun/progression (Not gear-wise) is not your first priority then raiding just isn't for you because you're gonna be disappointed quite a lot with that loot system and an attitude like that, can't imagine how you'd act with a guild that has Loot Council or Points.
    Last edited by NatePsychotic; 2012-11-28 at 10:22 AM.

  16. #156
    Can't believe someone flips this bad over a pile of pixels. Yes, it was a bit of a douche move from the tank, but hey, tank yourself if he's so bad. Surely your guild would let you.

  17. #157
    Quote Originally Posted by sisk View Post
    Maybe not in his first post, but later he kept going on about how it would be horrible to reach enrage timers for him, since he would only be able to think about the tank taking his weapon, at the same time he also say they where actually not having any problems with enrage timers.
    Ah, I did miss that post. http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...1#post19247144 to be specific. Yes, the thought that a single weapon upgrade like that will make or break enrage timers is unreasonable and possibly laughable. RNG is just as much to blame in that case.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
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  18. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    Playing a bit of Devil's Advocate, enrage timers weren't explicitly mentioned in the OP. It is, however, reasonable to infer that they're a bit of problem at times.

    It is possible the tank can survive decently once he has his shit together for the encounter, but getting him to that point is what's holding them back. I know I've had some issues on encounter mechanics but usually have my normal rotation down pat. Or he could just suck all around and not know how to tank as a pally (which is quite sad given the great guides here and on EJ). As a healer, I know you've seen a few too many sides of stupid. Regardless, I'm not so sure the whole "tank is a moron" thing is a central or totally intentional part of the argument though it certainly can contribute to others thinking that the one in conflict with the moron is the one in the right
    If you're hitting enrage timers now then it's a skill/strat issue. You don't need BiS to clear current content. In fact gear only masks bad players. We've hit enrage timers and wiped at 1-2%. We never went back and said "X person should have gotten (item) over Y person and this boss would be dead." It's always been "X person shouldn't stand in fire and die, and Y person should only move a little bit and not be running all over the place." That's what prevents kills not gear.

  19. #159
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackinthegreen View Post
    http://www.wowhead.com/item=86219 versus http://www.wowhead.com/item=86387. It's actually a somewhat interesting comparison because the legendary gem grants strength which is 95% as good as parry for pure avoidance. 95% of 500 is 475, so it's interesting comparing the mastery versus parry and all that.
    Dodge and parry are last in the stat priorities as prot paladin.

  20. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by Isotope View Post
    If you're hitting enrage timers now then it's a skill/strat issue. You don't need BiS to clear current content. In fact gear only masks bad players. We've hit enrage timers and wiped at 1-2%. We never went back and said "X person should have gotten (item) over Y person and this boss would be dead." It's always been "X person shouldn't stand in fire and die, and Y person should only move a little bit and not be running all over the place." That's what prevents kills not gear.
    And I agree with that. A single piece of loot from that tier or before (barring maybe an awesome set bonus) isn't going to make or break the enrage timer.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 03:30 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Demetrion View Post
    Dodge and parry are last in the stat priorities as prot paladin.
    And are still nearly as good as haste and mastery once hit and expertise caps are reached, as Theck proves at http://sacredduty.net/2012/10/05/dam...ing-follow-up/. It is possible that the stat gain from the legendary gem is enough to make it more worthwhile than the scimitar. I say it's interesting because it's debatable since there's not quite enough math done for it to make it a solid call given the information available. I'd be more inclined to crunch the numbers myself were it not past 3 AM for me.
    Last edited by Jackalope; 2012-11-28 at 10:36 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Everything Nice View Post
    Noodles and chocolate milk is the breakfast of Champions.
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