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  1. #241
    I like how you guys are picking the Palestian governments for them. Its so old-school colonialism.

    Lack of respect for self-determination is one reason we got here. The Palestians had an election that you guys didnt like the outcome of. So now you're telling where and who their "real" government is.

    Just wait until the PA just disolves. Be careful what you wish for.

  2. #242
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker76 View Post
    I like how you guys are picking the Palestian governments for them. Its so old-school colonialism.

    Lack of respect for self-determination is one reason we got here. The Palestians had an election that you guys didnt like the outcome of. So now you're telling where and who their "real" government is.

    Just wait until the PA just disolves. Be careful what you wish for.
    You see you are promising more terrorism. It's not a Colonial idea to refuse a terrorist organization the ability to have a world forum. But you are right about one thing and that is Hamas has Popular support, most of it is in Gaza, and I can foresee West Bank being Palestine Legally on the world stage and Gaza not being recognized as a part of Palestine because of this. I would find it hysterical if the PNA say "F" Gaza let them rot, and work out how to be civil with Israel and Jordan.
    Last edited by Gothicshark; 2012-12-11 at 12:16 AM.

  3. #243
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Yeah, I'm not sure why someone as smart as you would say something like this.
    What's so stupid about my statement?

    There is variety of opinions that i have that would probably make you think I'm stupid but what's really the whole deal is that you and i heavily disagree on political matters quite often.

    Anyways, the Palestinian representatives at the UN are solely those from the West Bank. Until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza, in my opinion, there's no point in opposing Palestinian UN membership (while accusing them of being terrorists and bombing Israel and whatnot).
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-12-11 at 12:20 AM.

  4. #244
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    What's so stupid about my statement?

    The Palestinian representatives at the UN are solely those from the West Bank. Until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza, there's no point in opposing Palestinian UN membership (while accusing them of being terrorists and bombing Israel and whatnot).
    Not stupid but less than accurate, because legally the PNA has jurisdiction over Gaza even though Hamas won the local elections.

    Edit:

    I should point out that I am sure Israel and the West Bank will work out a good working relationship by the end of next year, unfortunately Gaza will probably not be apart of the settled peace. And I doubt Gaza will ever know peace if things keep going as they are.
    Last edited by Gothicshark; 2012-12-11 at 12:21 AM.

  5. #245
    Blademaster john-scar's Avatar
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    free palestine

  6. #246
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by john-scar View Post
    free palestine
    That is a helpful statement. And really doesn't say much, Palestine is a Free and Independent National with two governments one which is legal and one that is not recognized that control two territories that are not connected. One part of Palestine will end up a prosperous nation with Israel and Jordan as Neighbors and the other will remain an urban hell that is both overpopulated and filled with terrorists.

  7. #247
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Not stupid but less than accurate, because legally the PNA has jurisdiction over Gaza even though Hamas won the local elections.

    Edit:

    I should point out that I am sure Israel and the West Bank will work out a good working relationship by the end of next year, unfortunately Gaza will probably not be apart of the settled peace. And I doubt Gaza will ever know peace if things keep going as they are.
    The PNA legally has jurisdiction over Gaza just because the people that live in Gaza are essentially the same as those that live in the West Bank; Palestinians, and because it's easier for the UN to just bunch them up as 1 group. Doing anything else wouldn't make much sense to be quite honest.

    Having legal jurisdiction, though, doesn't mean they actually hold any power over the area, it doesn't mean West Bank Palestinians are responsible for what's happening in Gaza and it doesn't mean they should suffer for the wrongdoings of their fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

  8. #248
    "Countries" that get their exercise in every day by shooting rockets into children probably shouldn't be in the UN.

  9. #249
    I am Murloc! cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    What's so stupid about my statement?

    Anyways, the Palestinian representatives at the UN are solely those from the West Bank. Until Hamas is removed from power in Gaza, in my opinion, there's no point in opposing Palestinian UN membership (while accusing them of being terrorists and bombing Israel and whatnot).
    I don't think you're stupid, and have never said otherwise. And while we certainly disagree on several political points, which I always find entertaining (and sometimes enlightening - I do enjoy learning new things), I just don't understand how you think there are somehow two separate Palestinian organizations. The people in Gaza are the people in the West Bank, and vice versa.
    The less you know, the more you believe.


    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

  10. #250
    Fluffy Kitten Wikiy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    I don't think you're stupid, and have never said otherwise. And while we certainly disagree on several political points, which I always find entertaining (and sometimes enlightening - I do enjoy learning new things), I just don't understand how you think there are somehow two separate Palestinian organizations. The people in Gaza are the people in the West Bank, and vice versa.
    Not really, by what they politically believe, or at least, by whom they're politically represented, they differ strongly. The political representatives of West Bank (those at the UN) are separate from the political representatives of Gaza, and it's my opinion that the Palestinians in the West Bank deserve their own country. Be it called Palestine, the Palestinian state of the West Bank of the Jordan, or any other silly name, i don't really care, what matters is that i think West Bank Palestinians shouldn't suffer for what Gaza Palestinians (or their leaders) are doing.

    Edit: Right now, I'm not so sure the idea of 2 Palestinian states would be so bad, the West Bank Palestine and Gaza Palestine. I wouldn't mind if Gaza remained under Israeli occupation at least until Hamas is removed from power either. It just seems to me like West Bank would be better off without Gaza, at least for now.

    Edit 2: I'll have to leave you, cubby and Gothickshark, for now since i have to wake up in like 5 hours (it's 01:41 here).
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-12-11 at 12:41 AM.

  11. #251
    Quote Originally Posted by TradewindNQ View Post
    "Countries" that get their exercise in every day by shooting rockets into children probably shouldn't be in the UN.
    You're right, let's remove Israel.

  12. #252
    Quote Originally Posted by Seja Victrix View Post
    You're right, let's remove Israel.
    Probably a good idea too.

  13. #253
    I am Murloc! Gothicshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wikiy View Post
    The PNA legally has jurisdiction over Gaza just because the people that live in Gaza are essentially the same as those that live in the West Bank; Palestinians, and because it's easier for the UN to just bunch them up as 1 group. Doing anything else wouldn't make much sense to be quite honest.

    Having legal jurisdiction, though, doesn't mean they actually hold any power over the area, it doesn't mean West Bank Palestinians are responsible for what's happening in Gaza and it doesn't mean they should suffer for the wrongdoings of their fellow Palestinians in Gaza.

    Which is why personally I'm not upset that Palestine is being recognized, but I understand why some are upset, I also understand that as it sits Gaza is not Palestine anymore but Hamas. If I was Palestinian I would want to live in the West bank and beg someone else to take charge of Gaza, of course no one wants the responsibility over Gaza, because it is nearly in total anarchy there. When people run around the streets dragging dead bodies behind motorcycles you can bet there is no law there.

  14. #254
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mistuhbull View Post
    So where's the hubbub about how Jordan illegally stole land from the poor Palestinians. I mean, that's a nation that was created through basically the same process as Israel
    Ssshhh...don't remind the Euros that their distate for Israel stems from their deep seated antisemitism.

    Infracted: Please don't accuse other posters of things such as antisemitism.
    Last edited by Wikiy; 2012-12-11 at 08:07 AM.
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  15. #255
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    Ssshhh...don't remind the Euros that their distate for Israel stems from their deep seated antisemitism.
    push comes to shove and you always place the anti semite card. palestinians are semites too. not all jews favour israel. same shit, differerent day. lame.

    maybe we arent just force fed fox news all day and can think for ourselves? large modern military state embarks on land grab, tanks againts sticks and stones and hey people dont like it. thats anti semitic?

    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Which is why personally I'm not upset that Palestine is being recognized, but I understand why some are upset, I also understand that as it sits Gaza is not Palestine anymore but Hamas. If I was Palestinian I would want to live in the West bank and beg someone else to take charge of Gaza, of course no one wants the responsibility over Gaza, because it is nearly in total anarchy there. When people run around the streets dragging dead bodies behind motorcycles you can bet there is no law there.
    this is the same west bank where israel plans to build 3000 illegal homes, going against the UN and world opinion? may not be so peaceful there soon.

  16. #256
    I am Murloc! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuukon View Post
    It's actually very simple, yet many disagree with it.

    Israel was founded under the United Nations (meaning the current global authority). Hence what they have is theirs legally. No amount of bitching and moaning will change that until (unless?) the UN changes their minds. And that's not going to happen since Israel is one of the largest economies in the world, going nation by nation. Plus if the UN changes their stance on Israel, nearly everything the UN has mandated will pretty much become useless.

    Not only that, but Israel as a nation has a RIGHT to defend themselves. Have they committed atrocities? Hell yes. So has every other sovereign nation in the world. If you want to argue otherwise, you are a fool.

    But regardless of that, they have the RIGHT to militarily respond to foreign threats to their legal sovereignty, just like any other nation on this planet. That said, most "western" nations regard Hamas, the governing body of Palestine, as terrorists. They haven't exactly done anything to dispute that other than saying "we're not terrorists". Their actions say otherwise.

    So when Hamas stops adopting terrorist attitudes and tactics, earnestly, then they would definitely have more of the worlds ear. And the ear of the USA. When they stop adopting violence as a means to an end, and actually adopt diplomatic solutions instead of launching countless poorly made rockets at Israel, their situation will undoubtedly begin to improve.

    But their demands to take over Israeli territory... Not going to happen. Ever. Not unless the UN is dissolved. And that's not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone currently alive on this planet. The UN being dissolved would cause a World War. How many people want THAT?
    Wait - what? I'm having a little trouble following your logic, but it seems as though you're claiming that Israel has the backing of the UN. That would not be correct. The only real support Israel has at the UN is the U.S. veto in the Security Council. There are literally dozens of resolutions that have been passed in the General Assembly condemning Israel and its treatment of the Palestinians. Wikipedia has a comprehensive list.

    I won't argue that many sovereign nations have committed terrible violations of human rights... but it is interesting to note how often the United States uses the excuse that "atrocities are being committed" as their rationale for military intervention. But not against Israel, obviously.

    As for Hamas, if I understand you correctly, the difference between Hamas and Israel is that while Hamas kills Israelis with scratch-built rockets and suicide bombers with IEDs, the Israelis kill Palestianians with jet fighters and smart bombs they were given by the United States. Personally, I don't think that puts either side in the right.

    Hamas is never going to get the support of the U.S. because they lack the neccessary money and influence. Their terrorism accomplishes little, and so is foolish in that sense, but it does seem to boost Palestinian morale. Other nations have done equally stupid things for similar reasons.

    As for how it's going to turn out... either the Israelis are going to suceed in their generations-long campaign to evict the Palestinians, or the Palestinian demographic advantages will eventually allow them to over-run Israel once it collapses from internal problems combined with a loss of support from waning America.

  17. #257
    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    I should point out that I am sure Israel and the West Bank will work out a good working relationship by the end of next year, unfortunately Gaza will probably not be apart of the settled peace. And I doubt Gaza will ever know peace if things keep going as they are.
    i think the world ending in 9 days is more plausible than an peaceful relationship between israel and palastine, israel is starting the E3 settlement if thats the correct name and the news were true
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    and i will be remembered forever as the pants hat glove shoes naked guy from vienna

  18. #258
    I am Murloc! ringpriest's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gothicshark View Post
    Not stupid but less than accurate, because legally the PNA has jurisdiction over Gaza even though Hamas won the local elections.

    Edit:

    I should point out that I am sure Israel and the West Bank will work out a good working relationship by the end of next year, unfortunately Gaza will probably not be apart of the settled peace. And I doubt Gaza will ever know peace if things keep going as they are.
    Ultimately, the only relationship Israel is interested in having with the Palestinians is getting rid of them. Israel would probably settle for stuffing them all in the Gaza Strip or a couple of little Bantustans in the non-settled parts of the West Bank, but would doubtless prefer to move the whole population en mass to some different part of the globe, like Stalin used to do to people who disagreed with him running the USSR. If you don't think that this is the eventual goal of Israel, please look at the following map and offer a better explanation:

    Last edited by ringpriest; 2012-12-11 at 08:26 AM.

  19. #259
    Herald of the Titans Beavis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    Ssshhh...don't remind the Euros that their distate for Israel stems from their deep seated antisemitism.

    Infracted: Please don't accuse other posters of things such as antisemitism.
    So, it's totally cool on this board to spew Stormfront garbage about how the Jews run the banks, forced the US into World War 2, and Israel is the hidden overlord of the US, but call that antisemitism and you get an infraction. Hmmm no bias here!
    When survival is the goal, it's into the spider hole!

  20. #260
    Quote Originally Posted by Beavis View Post
    So, it's totally cool on this board to spew Stormfront garbage about how the Jews run the banks, forced the US into World War 2, and Israel is the hidden overlord of the US, but call that antisemitism and you get an infraction. Hmmm no bias here!
    If that were true, there would be no Gaza strip. Israel mounted and prepared to attack Gaza awaiting the US help. The US refused.

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