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  1. #41
    Scarab Lord cubby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brachamul View Post
    Yes they are. When land is occupied by foreign forces, people resort to terrorism in order to revolt.
    It is what some americans did against the british, and what some french did against the german.
    There is nothing good about terrorism, but it is a last resort, and the symptom of a crisis.
    The only way to eradicate terrorism is to solve that crisis.
    Sorry, but this argument is both flawed and outdated. The people of Palestine aren't revolting, it's the government that is doing so. If Hamas laid down their arms and disappeared, there would be a peace negotiated within the week, and Palestine would have land and be a full member of the U.N. The only group that can't survive peace is Hamas. Everyone else wants it.
    The less you know, the more you believe.


    Actually, Mr. Lennon, I CAN imagine a world with no hate, religion, war, or violence.
    I can also imagine attacking such a world, because they would never see it coming.

  2. #42
    Scarab Lord namelessone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Not a single COUNTRY will accept a formation of another country right in the middle of their own country.
    Exactly. Except Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Sudan...
    The night is dark and full of terrors...

  3. #43
    Titan Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by namelessone View Post
    Exactly. Except Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Sudan...
    All three of which were artificial countries created by the breakup of or at the whim of the great powers.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  4. #44
    Well official US foreign policy is that we support a 2 state solution, its just that we are against doing anything to create a 2 state solution.
    Most people would rather die than think, and most people do. -Bertrand Russell
    There is not a flag large enough to cover the shame of killing innocent people. -Howard Zinn
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  5. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by Jackdemenzes View Post
    Can certainly see why the Palestinians would be upset though, given that the Ottoman Empire ran it into the ground, then they were invaded by the British, who supported an Israeli state enough that they let more Jews immigrate in than there were Palestinians in the first place. By the time the UN supported the creation of two states, I think the problems were already set in motion. At the very least, I'd say my sympathies lie with both sides, who have both been kicked repeatedly by history. It's a complete mess.
    Not only that: The British (and French) moved into the former Ottoman Empire territories under the promise of granting them independence... as soon as WWI ended! Britain and France didn't conquer Palestine, Syria, Iraq, etc, they were just administrating powers who were supposed to organize the independence of those territories. Why? because during WWI they acquired the compromise that, if the Arabs under the Ottoman rule rebelled against the Ottoman Empire, they would be given their independence.

    Instead, after WWI, when the British and the French moved in, they realized "hmm... these are pretty rich territories regarding natural resources... it would be a shame to get rid of them" and began to treat them as colonies instead.

    The British, seeing how they were allotted what the Zionists considered their goal as to establish a Jewish state, decided to take that chance and enact their own "final solution", which although bloodless, resulted in an ethnic cleansing all the same (shamelessly using good-willed Zionists as tools).

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 08:32 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by cubby View Post
    Sorry, but this argument is both flawed and outdated. The people of Palestine aren't revolting, it's the government that is doing so. If Hamas laid down their arms and disappeared, there would be a peace negotiated within the week, and Palestine would have land and be a full member of the U.N. The only group that can't survive peace is Hamas. Everyone else wants it.
    Did you ever see how small is the part controlled by Hamas? Gaza is hardly even considered on the same footing as West Bank, as they have completely different administrations, they are basically independent of each other. Mixing Gaza with the Palestinian State is just muddying the issue.

    But just so you know, Al Fatah did lay down the the weapons, and look at what happened to the amount of territory they were finally given for the Palestinian State, out of the former West Bank:
    http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ection_map.PNG

    dark green for the actual "Palestinian State".

    So, Israel rewards Hamas for their continued armed resistance/terrorism by giving them all their territory, while Al Fatah, for compromising and having renounced to violence since many years ago, and having renounced to terrorism decades ago, gets their territory cut by 2/3, and scattered, where you can't properly actually police it, and keep your violent elements under control.

    So, who's favoring Hamas here?

  6. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Simple because if UN becomes a acknowledge sovereign state Palestinians will have more rights and a stronger position then it has now. Palestinians would be allowed to go to the International court in the Hague for every illegal action taken by Israel:

    example the illegal settlements, demolishing of Palestinian homes, kidnapping of Palestinians, imprisoning Palestinians, restricting the movement of Palestinians both in Gaza and WB, the blockade of Gaza and shooting and killing of Palestinians in their own sovereign state.

    The reason why the US/Israel gives about how a sovereign Palestinian state doesn't help the negotiations is BS. Till this day Israel has done everything to sabotage the peace process (they will never admit it though and will say that both sides are to blame), even when Abbas was making huge compromises Israel still didn't accept his offer (see the leaks from a few years back when Abbas gave Israel a perfect deal).

    Having said that I disagree with 1 thing. At least part of the Palestinians have to go further then the 67 borders and that at least in terms of negotiating they have to aim for the 47 borders. When negotiating you have to ask more then what's reasonable because after your done you will always get less, so asking for what is more then reasonable will mean you will get less then reasonable.



    No they refused to acknowledge Israel. And I've said it often but not a single nation would have acknowledge Israel if the same thing happened in their own country.

    Not a single COUNTRY will accept a formation of another country right in the middle of their own country.
    Let me just point out that your statements are your opinions, not facts. Simply because you want it to be true, wont make it so.
    The peace talks always fail on 3 points:
    1) Israel's right to exist
    2) Jerusalem
    3) Palestinian right of return

    Neither side ever accepted all 3, tho Israel did make enough compromises and proposed a working plan even for point #3.

    There are 2 main reasons the US doesn't want a Palestinian UN membership:
    1) They are allied with Israel and it simply would mean they would go against their allies by accepting such a thing
    2) The US has a long history of fighting terrorism, and when the Palestinians are governed by Hamas (A terrorist group, no matter how you look at it) in Gaza, and remnants of Fatah in the west bank, they are doubtful about once again committing the mistake of putting terrorists in a high place.

    The US, sadly, have learned from their experience: Every time they help a nation rise against their dictator, either by training the rebels or supplying them with equipment, it has come back to bite them in the ass. They will try to avoid it in the future.

  7. #47
    I would think uniting would be what the states are all about. The wars won't stop except around a peace table.

    Pressure from Israel is a decent explanation, but that would be pressure to push peace further away. It's high time the US makes its own decision.

  8. #48
    Bloodsail Admiral soulcrusher's Avatar
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    if paelstine becomes a nation they have access to the UN courts. for the first time they have a real chance of justice. Israel is terrified that they will then be pursued for war crimes during their oppression in Cast Lead for example. IMO its just delaying the inevitable.

    the fact that USA, EU, Israel attach a precondition that Palestine wont pursue israel for war crimes speaks for itself. why else would they need to insist on this precondition.

  9. #49
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by soulcrusher View Post
    if paelstine becomes a nation they have access to the UN courts. for the first time they have a real chance of justice. Israel is terrified that they will then be pursued for war crimes during their oppression in Cast Lead for example. IMO its just delaying the inevitable.

    the fact that USA, EU, Israel attach a precondition that Palestine wont pursue israel for war crimes speaks for itself. why else would they need to insist on this precondition.
    To be fair, sneezing in the wrong direction is practically considered a war-crime these days.

  10. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    To be fair, sneezing in the wrong direction is practically considered a war-crime these days.
    Pesky war-crimes legislation... what about the right to plunder?

  11. #51
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Pesky war-crimes legislation... what about the right to plunder?
    I know, we're missing out on all those florins gained from looting!

    somebody will get that reference...

  12. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    I know, we're missing out on all those florins gained from looting!

    somebody will get that reference...
    I know the florin is old gold currency... but don't think i get the whole reference

  13. #53
    Its pretty simple really. Moral reasons and such are meaningless in politics.

    A) The US has allied with Israel.
    B) Palestine is an enemy of Israel.

    Therefore, Palestine will get no favors from the US. Digging into the history is fascinating I agree, but in the context of the vote. The US will side with the side that is most beneficial to itself.

    If you want to talk of being just, morality or simply doing "the right thing." I would not consider the US as having any of that. Let us not forget the US performed just as much if not more terrorism than most organized terrorist cells. Kidnapping foreign citizens, holding people outside the US borders without trial and under torture to escape the human rights laws in their own country, Wikileaks, Vietnam, WTO, etc. I'm not saying others are better but the US is certainly no role model.

  14. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    Let me just point out that your statements are your opinions, not facts. Simply because you want it to be true, wont make it so.
    The peace talks always fail on 3 points:
    1) Israel's right to exist
    2) Jerusalem
    3) Palestinian right of return

    Neither side ever accepted all 3, tho Israel did make enough compromises and proposed a working plan even for point #3.

    There are 2 main reasons the US doesn't want a Palestinian UN membership:
    1) They are allied with Israel and it simply would mean they would go against their allies by accepting such a thing
    2) The US has a long history of fighting terrorism, and when the Palestinians are governed by Hamas (A terrorist group, no matter how you look at it) in Gaza, and remnants of Fatah in the west bank, they are doubtful about once again committing the mistake of putting terrorists in a high place.

    The US, sadly, have learned from their experience: Every time they help a nation rise against their dictator, either by training the rebels or supplying them with equipment, it has come back to bite them in the ass. They will try to avoid it in the future.
    The problem with #1 is that for any Arab person to concede that is to concede the British had a right to just carve the land up that they claimed they would grant independence post WWI and give it to foreigners post WWII (and justifiably distrustful, paranoid foreigners at that).

    I think we can all readily agree that the destruction of the state of Israel is a non-starter, morally and politically. That doesn't detract from the fact that the creation of it was one of the most egregious acts of state-level oppression and conquering that ever occurred without outright war being declared.

  15. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    Its pretty simple really. Moral reasons and such are meaningless in politics.

    A) The US has allied with Israel.
    B) Palestine is an enemy of Israel.

    Therefore, Palestine will get no favors from the US. Digging into the history is fascinating I agree, but in the context of the vote. The US will side with the side that is most beneficial to itself.

    If you want to talk of being just, morality or simply doing "the right thing." I would not consider the US as having any of that. Let us not forget the US performed just as much if not more terrorism than most organized terrorist cells. Kidnapping foreign citizens, holding people outside the US borders without trial and under torture to escape the human rights laws in their own country, Wikileaks, Vietnam, WTO, etc. I'm not saying others are better but the US is certainly no role model.
    Of course, but injustices (rightly or wrongly perceived) breed conflict.
    Is it really in the best interests of the US, and even Israel, to block Palestinian independence and international acknowledgement? Are they being wise about their own interests?
    Do the US and Israel benefit from giving Hamas an advantageous position against Israel and against the Palestinian Authority?
    Last edited by jotabe; 2012-11-29 at 10:15 AM.

  16. #56
    Titan Kalyyn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    I know the florin is old gold currency... but don't think i get the whole reference
    It's from the Total War games.

    Victory for the reich!

  17. #57
    It's partially because the us government views hamas as a terrorist organization and it would be awkward considering our laws against talks with terrorist groups. Another reason is that the us government would lose leverage with abbas in any kind of negotiations. The US government also believes that direct talks is the best method to israel and palestine to deal with their problems. The US has absolutely nothing to benefit from this directly. So it doesn't make sense for the US to support it. It is highly likely that Palestine will get enough votes to become a non member though.
    Last edited by Barnabas; 2012-11-29 at 10:43 AM.

  18. #58
    Of course, but injustices (rightly or wrongly perceived) breed conflict.
    Is it really in the best interests of the US, and even Israel, to block Palestinian independence and international acknowledgement? Are they being wise about their own interests?
    Do the US and Israel benefit from giving Hamas an advantageous position against Israel and against the Palestinian Authority?
    The US has decided you can't be allies with everyone. They have considered the situation and their leaders feel this is the most advantageous choice for them. Whatever negative effects are more than offset by the positive effects under their analysis. Unless Hamas can convince the US that being allies with them is better than Israel, they have no chance. Like the Vietnamese found out, the US can switch their allegiances when the situation changes.

  19. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Kalyyn View Post
    It's from the Total War games.
    Victory for the reich!
    Haha total war, good times I only played the first one, Shogun. By the time the rest came out, i was too old to play RTSs.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 10:45 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by hatsune View Post
    The US has decided you can't be allies with everyone. They have considered the situation and their leaders feel this is the most advantageous choice for them. Whatever negative effects are more than offset by the positive effects under their analysis. Unless Hamas can convince the US that being allies with them is better than Israel, they have no chance. Like the Vietnamese found out, the US can switch their allegiances when the situation changes.
    Currently, Hamas is the de facto ally of the US and Israel, against the PNC.

  20. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by Venant View Post
    Well official US foreign policy is that we support a 2 state solution, its just that we are against doing anything to create a 2 state solution.
    Pretty much this. The entire world including the US see a 2 state solution as the only option to get peace.
    Interestingly Abbas is for peaceful solutions but Israel work against him with constant colonization effectivly playing into the hands of Hamas.
    What palestinians and everyone else see is that if there is a non violence approach such as by Abbas nothing happens, Israel just continues to devide, populate, expand their illegal territory.
    On the other hand when Hamas way of violence is used, things happen such as Israel being forced to negotiate via Egypt.

    Both sides are to blame for this but Israel kinda deserve some of the hardship from their behaviour.

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