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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    Let me just point out that your statements are your opinions, not facts. Simply because you want it to be true, wont make it so.
    The peace talks always fail on 3 points:
    1) Israel's right to exist
    2) Jerusalem
    3) Palestinian right of return

    Neither side ever accepted all 3, tho Israel did make enough compromises and proposed a working plan even for point #3.

    There are 2 main reasons the US doesn't want a Palestinian UN membership:
    1) They are allied with Israel and it simply would mean they would go against their allies by accepting such a thing
    2) The US has a long history of fighting terrorism, and when the Palestinians are governed by Hamas (A terrorist group, no matter how you look at it) in Gaza, and remnants of Fatah in the west bank, they are doubtful about once again committing the mistake of putting terrorists in a high place.

    The US, sadly, have learned from their experience: Every time they help a nation rise against their dictator, either by training the rebels or supplying them with equipment, it has come back to bite them in the ass. They will try to avoid it in the future.
    Palestinians even Hamas accept Israel as a State, however Israel wants to be accepted as a Jewish state. The difference is that when accepting Israel as the Jewish state the Palestinians will give up any legal claim they have and Israel would have been justified to remove Palestinians from their home. To put it simply the years of repression, murder, kidnapping and demolishing of homes would be forgiven because the Palestinians would become the the foreign invaders.

    Second point: The Palestinian stance on Jerusalem is simple....go to pre 67 borders and each side gets a piece of the pie.

    Third subject: This one is kind of connected to the first, Abbas was willing to comprise by allowing a small token of Palestinians in. Israel again refused the comprise because in a way by not allowing the Palestinians to return they will admit that they never belonged their.

    All of these subjects got sabotaged by Israel because end of the day Israel has nothing to gain by achieving peace. Israel can do everything it wants right now, a sovereign Palestinian state would stop all of that.

  2. #62
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    And to the title, the US cant block UN membership by itself. We don't have some kind of veto that we can implement by ourselves. The General Assembly votes, and if 2/3 allow membership, then there is nothing the US can do to stop it.

    Furthermore, the UN is voting on Thursday for the recognition of Palestinian statehood, and its very very likely to pass. The US is voting against it, but so is Germany and the UK.
    Uhmmm.. yes we do. The 5 permanent members of the Security Council have veto power over anything in the UN. The 5 members are US, Russia (former USSR), China, France and UK.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by eschatological View Post
    The problem with #1 is that for any Arab person to concede that is to concede the British had a right to just carve the land up that they claimed they would grant independence post WWI and give it to foreigners post WWII (and justifiably distrustful, paranoid foreigners at that).

    I think we can all readily agree that the destruction of the state of Israel is a non-starter, morally and politically. That doesn't detract from the fact that the creation of it was one of the most egregious acts of state-level oppression and conquering that ever occurred without outright war being declared.
    Arab countries already admitted to Israel's right to exist. It is part of the peace treaties with Egypt, Jordan and Saudi Arabia.
    It isn't THAT outlandish, really, to admit the cake is made of chocolate, despite your wishful hoping it'll be lemon cake.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:26 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Palestinians even Hamas accept Israel as a State, however Israel wants to be accepted as a Jewish state. The difference is that when accepting Israel as the Jewish state the Palestinians will give up any legal claim they have and Israel would have been justified to remove Palestinians from their home. To put it simply the years of repression, murder, kidnapping and demolishing of homes would be forgiven because the Palestinians would become the the foreign invaders.

    Second point: The Palestinian stance on Jerusalem is simple....go to pre 67 borders and each side gets a piece of the pie.

    Third subject: This one is kind of connected to the first, Abbas was willing to comprise by allowing a small token of Palestinians in. Israel again refused the comprise because in a way by not allowing the Palestinians to return they will admit that they never belonged their.

    All of these subjects got sabotaged by Israel because end of the day Israel has nothing to gain by achieving peace. Israel can do everything it wants right now, a sovereign Palestinian state would stop all of that.
    This just proves how little you actually know: Hamas NEVER accepted Israel as a state, not as a state, not as a Jewish state. As nothing. Also, PLO never accepted Israel either, not only as a Jewish state, but as a state. On top of that, what is with their racism? Does it bother them so much that Israel are Jews? Hah.

    2nd point: Pre 67, Jerusalem was almost completely under Jordanian rule. Reason most east-Jerusalem "Palestinians" have Jordanian passports and Israeli ID cards.
    Why would Israel pull back close to 1 million Israeli citizens from a city they pretty much built up from ruins? Splitting Jerusalem is something that Hamas has never agreed to, since they simply want ALL of it.

    3rd: Abbas was never willing to compromise. He did, at some point, state he would be willing to give up on the right of return, only to state, later that day, that his words were taken out of context and he simply meant he had no interest in going back to his birthplace: Safed.

    All the peace talks were turned down by Palestinians, either by their extremists choosing the peace talks as the best time to begin random attacks on Israeli citizens, or by the Palestinian side dragging the peace talks around day after day saying "maybe", even to all the 3rd parties involved, only to randomly say "Nope, no way" after a month.

  4. #64
    The Lightbringer Deadvolcanoes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thwart View Post
    Uhmmm.. yes we do. The 5 permanent members of the Security Council have veto power over anything in the UN. The 5 members are US, Russia (former USSR), China, France and UK.
    Yeahhhhhh no. Just no.

    In fact, just today, the UN upgraded the status of Palestine to "non-observer entity." The United States was against this upgrade, but was powerless to stop it.

    So again. No.
    It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere.

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Valort View Post
    This just proves how little you actually know: Hamas NEVER accepted Israel as a state, not as a state, not as a Jewish state. As nothing. Also, PLO never accepted Israel either, not only as a Jewish state, but as a state. On top of that, what is with their racism? Does it bother them so much that Israel are Jews? Hah.

    2nd point: Pre 67, Jerusalem was almost completely under Jordanian rule. Reason most east-Jerusalem "Palestinians" have Jordanian passports and Israeli ID cards.
    Why would Israel pull back close to 1 million Israeli citizens from a city they pretty much built up from ruins? Splitting Jerusalem is something that Hamas has never agreed to, since they simply want ALL of it.

    3rd: Abbas was never willing to compromise. He did, at some point, state he would be willing to give up on the right of return, only to state, later that day, that his words were taken out of context and he simply meant he had no interest in going back to his birthplace: Safed.

    All the peace talks were turned down by Palestinians, either by their extremists choosing the peace talks as the best time to begin random attacks on Israeli citizens, or by the Palestinian side dragging the peace talks around day after day saying "maybe", even to all the 3rd parties involved, only to randomly say "Nope, no way" after a month.
    The PLO has acknowledged Israel's right to exist since 1988, when it endorsed the 2-state solution. In 1996 it nullified the parts of its foundational chart where it called for the destruction of Israel. So, you better get informed before you come give your opinion.

    Aslo, the reason to be bothered by Israel being a Jewish state has nothing to do with racism. The problem is that by Israel nature of not being a non-religious state, Palestinians who live in Israel have a 2nd class citizen status. This condition surfaces, for example whenever Palestinian homes are expropriated for demolition, to build new homes and house Jewish immigrants.

    Since Arafat, the PLO has been willing to compromise in a drastic reduction of the "right to return". This has always been accompanied by an Israeli claim to be willing to compromise on the reduction of the settlements... claims that end up being proven false when after a few days, a new settlement is built in West Bank, reducing even more the PNA territory.
    But this only happens to West Bank, to the part of the PNA territory where the government is willing to compromise. Gaza, where Hamas rules, has been rewarded with the end of the occupation and the dismantling of all the settlements.
    Last edited by jotabe; 2012-11-30 at 12:50 AM.

  6. #66
    Herald of the Titans tommypilgrim's Avatar
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    From the Israeli Prime Minister, after Palestine's victory today:

    "By going to the UN , the Palestinians have violated the agreements with Israel and Israel will act accordingly,"
    That says pretty much everything about this scum. Trying to suppress a people's right to justice with threats and bullying.
    Did you like the above post? How about sending me a dollar? I'd have adverts here but apparently that'd break ToS.

  7. #67
    The Lightbringer Alceus's Avatar
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    there is no real VETO atm. Commissions handle the serious stuff, the VETO is just stuff for fox news.

  8. #68
    Stood in the Fire Sanguinesun's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommypilgrim View Post
    From the Israeli Prime Minister, after Palestine's victory today:



    That says pretty much everything about this scum. Trying to suppress a people's right to justice with threats and bullying.
    Some folks on another forum mentioned this interesting tidbit:

    Israel may be acting upset now but in reality, the next time Palestinians shoot a missle into Israel again, Israel can say "a soveriegn nation has launched an attack on us. This constitutes an act of war." Thus Gaza and westbank will be flattened rather expediently.

  9. #69
    The USA may have their own reasons, but I don't understand why my country Canada was not neutral. What happened with our moto?: "Winter is always coming, peacekeeping before policing, it's not of our business...?

    Conservative government? probably.

  10. #70
    The Lightbringer Alceus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinesun View Post
    Some folks on another forum mentioned this interesting tidbit:

    Israel may be acting upset now but in reality, the next time Palestinians shoot a missle into Israel again, Israel can say "a soveriegn nation has launched an attack on us. This constitutes an act of war." Thus Gaza and westbank will be flattened rather expediently.
    Palestinians =/= terrorists.

    Terrorists launches missiles, provoke israel.
    Palestinians suffer from all the above^

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinesun View Post
    Some folks on another forum mentioned this interesting tidbit:

    Israel may be acting upset now but in reality, the next time Palestinians shoot a missle into Israel again, Israel can say "a soveriegn nation has launched an attack on us. This constitutes an act of war." Thus Gaza and westbank will be flattened rather expediently.
    I never thought of this like that. You may be right, maybe it's planned.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:11 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Alceus View Post
    Palestinians =/= terrorists.

    Terrorists launches missiles, provoke israel.
    Palestinians suffer from all the above^
    The problem is because violence begets violence. Even if my neighboor is one of my best friend, the day he throw a bomb on my house and kill my family, he become my enemy. Politics and friendship or not, I will destroy him.

    That happens a lot in the arab countries, ask the Irakian little guy who saw his little sister explode how he felt before and after. The probabilities is like the CIA called it: Blowbacks. Blowbacks are the problems in this region presently.

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Sanguinesun View Post
    Some folks on another forum mentioned this interesting tidbit:

    Israel may be acting upset now but in reality, the next time Palestinians shoot a missle into Israel again, Israel can say "a soveriegn nation has launched an attack on us. This constitutes an act of war." Thus Gaza and westbank will be flattened rather expediently.
    Despite Gaza and West Bank having different governments, and having different policies regarding Israel (Hamas in Gaza doesn't recognise Israel right to exist and sponsors terrorist attacks, while the PLO in West Bank has recognised Israel right to exist and has renounced to terrorism since 1980), and having received rather different treatment from Israel in the past (favouring Hamas and hindering the PLO). But what do i know? They are all Palestinian terrorists!

  13. #73
    Because the arabs used to call the Jews the "palestinian people" before they got the bright idea to claim an ancient history in a land where they have none. I'm sure the truth won't sway the anti-Semitic masses, but the truth needs to be stated.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:40 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Morogoth View Post
    The USA may have their own reasons, but I don't understand why my country Canada was not neutral. What happened with our moto?: "Winter is always coming, peacekeeping before policing, it's not of our business...?

    Conservative government? probably.
    Thank God for the Conservative government. Sorry you're so bent out of shape about it. Harper's the greatest PM we've ever had.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    And to the title, the US cant block UN membership by itself. We don't have some kind of veto that we can implement by ourselves. The General Assembly votes, and if 2/3 allow membership, then there is nothing the US can do to stop it.

    Furthermore, the UN is voting on Thursday for the recognition of Palestinian statehood, and its very very likely to pass. The US is voting against it, but so is Germany and the UK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deadvolcanoes View Post
    Yeahhhhhh no. Just no.

    In fact, just today, the UN upgraded the status of Palestine to "non-observer entity." The United States was against this upgrade, but was powerless to stop it.

    So again. No.
    Uh, yes you do. You really don't know what you're talking about.

    When voting for such an entity the majority is enough(which happened). When voting for full UN membership the U.S will be able to veto the entire thing because of being a permanent member of the UN.

    You really should stop spreading misinformation and look into things before you act.

    The title is correct. Israel controls U.S and there's your answer. As long as Israel holds so much power in America, US will always VETO a full UN membership for Palestine.
    Last edited by Kekkiki; 2012-11-30 at 01:52 AM.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by dd614 View Post
    Because the arabs used to call the Jews the "palestinian people" before they got the bright idea to claim an ancient history in a land where they have none. I'm sure the truth won't sway the anti-Semitic masses, but the truth needs to be stated.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:40 AM ----------



    Thank God for the Conservative government. Sorry you're so bent out of shape about it. Harper's the greatest PM we've ever had.
    I still remember when Jean Chrétien said no to the war on Irak. At this time, he was the veteran of the United Nations. Harper do his job, but he doesn't have the renown charisma of the canadian leaders.

  16. #76
    Mechagnome Artravus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuukon View Post
    It's actually very simple, yet many disagree with it.

    Israel was founded under the United Nations (meaning the current global authority). Hence what they have is theirs legally. No amount of bitching and moaning will change that until (unless?) the UN changes their minds. And that's not going to happen since Israel is one of the largest economies in the world, going nation by nation. Plus if the UN changes their stance on Israel, nearly everything the UN has mandated will pretty much become useless.

    Not only that, but Israel as a nation has a RIGHT to defend themselves. Have they committed atrocities? Hell yes. So has every other sovereign nation in the world. If you want to argue otherwise, you are a fool.

    But regardless of that, they have the RIGHT to militarily respond to foreign threats to their legal sovereignty, just like any other nation on this planet. That said, most "western" nations regard Hamas, the governing body of Palestine, as terrorists. They haven't exactly done anything to dispute that other than saying "we're not terrorists". Their actions say otherwise.

    So when Hamas stops adopting terrorist attitudes and tactics, earnestly, then they would definitely have more of the worlds ear. And the ear of the USA. When they stop adopting violence as a means to an end, and actually adopt diplomatic solutions instead of launching countless poorly made rockets at Israel, their situation will undoubtedly begin to improve.

    But their demands to take over Israeli territory... Not going to happen. Ever. Not unless the UN is dissolved. And that's not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone currently alive on this planet. The UN being dissolved would cause a World War. How many people want THAT?
    This person just saved me a lot of time. Right now Hamas IS Palestine. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The US doesn't like terrorist organizations. Therefore, the US doesn't like the "government" of Palestine and doesn't want them in the UN.
    When she was just a girl, she expected the world, but it flew away from her reach so she ran away in her sleep and dreamed of para-para-paradise, para-para-paradise, para-para-paradise every time she closed her eyes..

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Artravus View Post
    This person just saved me a lot of time. Right now Hamas IS Palestine. Hamas is a terrorist organization. The US doesn't like terrorist organizations. Therefore, the US doesn't like the "government" of Palestine and doesn't want them in the UN.
    Stop the misinformation, please. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Not of Palestine. Remember the West Bank, the PNA, ruled by the PLO? The one organization that renounced to terrorism in 1980?

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by jotabe View Post
    Stop the misinformation, please. Hamas is the government of Gaza. Not of Palestine. Remember the West Bank, the PNA, ruled by the PLO? The one organization that renounced to terrorism in 1980?
    pffft the US sometimes loves terrorists. We loved the Contras, we loved the Afghan Mujaheddin, we loved Cuban terrorists blowing up air planes.

    And last month we loved the MEK, whom we used to list as a terrorist org.

    So dont say the US doesn't like terrorists.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Brachamul View Post
    Hello,

    Please understand, i'm not trying to start a heated debate, but i'm having trouble comprehending the US position on refusing recognition of the Palestinian state at the United Nations.

    To be more precise, my country of France has long-supported making the Palestinian State a member of the United Nations. Currently, this is prevented by threats from the United States to veto the proposal. Thus, Palestine can only attempt at acquiring an "Observer's Seat", for which many European countries will be voting for.

    Though i'm no specialist on the topic, and i don't see the world in a "good" and "evil" way, it feels to me that there is a clear "right" thing to do here, in the name of sheer dignity, and that the US is going against that. Perhaps I am missing something, and i would like to understand the US point of view.

    Could someone clear this up for me ?
    Because that's what Israel wants.
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    Everyone is pro-US. They just don't know it yet.
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    A nice list of logical fallacies. In picture form!

  20. #80
    Mechagnome Sealed Shut's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Palestinians even Hamas accept Israel as a State, however Israel wants to be accepted as a Jewish state. The difference is that when accepting Israel as the Jewish state the Palestinians will give up any legal claim they have and Israel would have been justified to remove Palestinians from their home. To put it simply the years of repression, murder, kidnapping and demolishing of homes would be forgiven because the Palestinians would become the the foreign invaders.

    Second point: The Palestinian stance on Jerusalem is simple....go to pre 67 borders and each side gets a piece of the pie.

    Third subject: This one is kind of connected to the first, Abbas was willing to comprise by allowing a small token of Palestinians in. Israel again refused the comprise because in a way by not allowing the Palestinians to return they will admit that they never belonged their.

    All of these subjects got sabotaged by Israel because end of the day Israel has nothing to gain by achieving peace. Israel can do everything it wants right now, a sovereign Palestinian state would stop all of that.
    don't have much to say on this subject.. except on the bolded.... LOL
    they should have thought of the consequences when going to war with Israel.
    Tough shit if you want part of Jerusalem, i hope Israel never gives in and lets them have part of it.
    This would be like Mexico demanding to have Texas back...

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