Page 1 of 14
1
2
3
11
... LastLast
  1. #1

    Why is the US preventing Palestinian UN membership?

    Hello,

    Please understand, i'm not trying to start a heated debate, but i'm having trouble comprehending the US position on refusing recognition of the Palestinian state at the United Nations.

    To be more precise, my country of France has long-supported making the Palestinian State a member of the United Nations. Currently, this is prevented by threats from the United States to veto the proposal. Thus, Palestine can only attempt at acquiring an "Observer's Seat", for which many European countries will be voting for.

    Though i'm no specialist on the topic, and i don't see the world in a "good" and "evil" way, it feels to me that there is a clear "right" thing to do here, in the name of sheer dignity, and that the US is going against that. Perhaps I am missing something, and i would like to understand the US point of view.

    Could someone clear this up for me ?

  2. #2
    Stood in the Fire draganid's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    vancouver
    Posts
    492
    because america bends over backwards to do israel's bidding.

  3. #3
    Dreadlord Espe's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Muscle, bone and sinew tangled.
    Posts
    824
    There is no clear answer here.

    At certain points in history some people are oppressed. At other points those same people are oppressors. It shifts back and forth and it is not confined to the Palestine / Israel conflict.

    Their religions give them an easy reason to indulge the worst parts of their humanity; hate, ignorance and vitriol abound. Sadly, even without religion they would simply find another excuse to harass and kill fellow human beings.

    Again, there is no clear answer but what it comes down to is that it is something inside each and every one of us - we get to choose how we hate, who we hate and for what reason. If we choose to say that a certain people should be wiped off the face of this planet and those people choose to wipe us off the face of the planet in response, you have a skirmish, or a conflict, or a war. And when people are fighting they will use whatever tools at their disposal to harass and dismantle the enemy numbers - diplomatic, economic and military.

    Finally, in this case, no party is right. They are both wrong.
    Just a few examples of typical conservatives. Read at your own risk:
    Quote Originally Posted by The Penguin View Post
    Totally cool with abortion in rape scenarios, but making it widely available or expecting employers to provide it incentivizes women to whore themselves out and creates a nuisance
    Quote Originally Posted by Orlong View Post
    The reason many people are poor is because they DONT save any spare money they have. They blow it on things to entertain them or make them happy

  4. #4
    Isn't the official explanation that any UN recognition of a state of palestine (of which there has never been a nation before) would become problematic to any agreements between Isreal and Palestine?

    And didn't Palestine refuse to become their own state back in '47 when the UN tried to setup Isreal and Palestine next to each other?

  5. #5
    Simple because if UN becomes a acknowledge sovereign state Palestinians will have more rights and a stronger position then it has now. Palestinians would be allowed to go to the International court in the Hague for every illegal action taken by Israel:

    example the illegal settlements, demolishing of Palestinian homes, kidnapping of Palestinians, imprisoning Palestinians, restricting the movement of Palestinians both in Gaza and WB, the blockade of Gaza and shooting and killing of Palestinians in their own sovereign state.

    The reason why the US/Israel gives about how a sovereign Palestinian state doesn't help the negotiations is BS. Till this day Israel has done everything to sabotage the peace process (they will never admit it though and will say that both sides are to blame), even when Abbas was making huge compromises Israel still didn't accept his offer (see the leaks from a few years back when Abbas gave Israel a perfect deal).

    Having said that I disagree with 1 thing. At least part of the Palestinians have to go further then the 67 borders and that at least in terms of negotiating they have to aim for the 47 borders. When negotiating you have to ask more then what's reasonable because after your done you will always get less, so asking for what is more then reasonable will mean you will get less then reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    Isn't the official explanation that any UN recognition of a state of palestine (of which there has never been a nation before) would become problematic to any agreements between Isreal and Palestine?

    And didn't Palestine refuse to become their own state back in '47 when the UN tried to setup Isreal and Palestine next to each other?
    No they refused to acknowledge Israel. And I've said it often but not a single nation would have acknowledge Israel if the same thing happened in their own country.

    Not a single COUNTRY will accept a formation of another country right in the middle of their own country.

  6. #6
    Because the all so powerful Israeli lobby order them not to.
    I wonder what happened to the land of freedom. This are sad years.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Simple because if UN becomes a acknowledge sovereign state Palestinians will have more rights and a stronger position then it has now. Palestinians would be allowed to go to the International court in the Hague for every illegal action taken by Israel:

    example the illegal settlements, demolishing of Palestinian homes, kidnapping of Palestinians, imprisoning Palestinians, restricting the movement of Palestinians both in Gaza and WB, the blockade of Gaza and shooting and killing of Palestinians in their own sovereign state.

    The reason why the US/Israel gives about how a sovereign Palestinian state doesn't help the negotiations is BS. Till this day Israel has done everything to sabotage the peace process (they will never admit it though and will say that both sides are to blame), even when Abbas was making huge compromises Israel still didn't accept his offer (see the leaks from a few years back when Abbas gave Israel a perfect deal).

    Having said that I disagree with 1 thing. At least part of the Palestinians have to go further then the 67 borders and that at least in terms of negotiating they have to aim for the 47 borders. When negotiating you have to ask more then what's reasonable because after your done you will always get less, so asking for what is more then reasonable will mean you will get less then reasonable.



    No they refused to acknowledge Israel. And I've said it often but not a single nation would have acknowledge Israel if the same thing happened in their own country.

    Not a single COUNTRY will accept a formation of another country right in the middle of their own country.
    Well since it was a British Colony, consisting of both palestinians and jews, I'm not really sure why you think that only the Palestinians get a right to the land when the Brits gave it to the UN to divy up as they saw fit.

    But lets forget all that and only look at one side and pretend that atrocities haven't been committed by both sides. Hooray?

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by obdigore View Post
    But lets forget all that and only look at one side and pretend that atrocities haven't been committed by both sides. Hooray?
    No one is arguing that?
    I am not a racist, I am a melting pot of friendship
    Quote Originally Posted by Airwaves View Post
    Bows were made for tools of war. They go in the same pot as guns. There is ZERO reason to own a bow in 2014. Tools of war have no place in civilian homes.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Stuffs View Post
    No one is arguing that?
    The person he quoted directly stated that Israel is solely to blame, and constantly tries to shift blame onto both parties rather than owning up to that.

    Till this day Israel has done everything to sabotage the peace process (they will never admit it though and will say that both sides are to blame),
    On-topic, there are many reasons, but one of them is that Palestine is currently in the hands of a group we consider a terrorist organization, and the border war makes the question of where the state lies a little fuzzy.

    3DS Friend Code: 0146-9205-4817. Could show as either Chris or Chrysia.

  10. #10
    Because Israel doesn't want it, and we're in bed with them. Everyone's got to be in bed with someone, it seems. I'd love it if we could spend all that money we give away on our own people in our own country, and leave the ignorant savages to kill each other and rot. I don't give even one single fuck how many people I offend with that proceeding sentence.

    You don't send a fortune to charities overseas when your mom, cousin, and next-door neighbor can't afford medicine, shelter, and food respectively. So why the fuck should we be giving billions to other countries when our own people have needs that aren't being met.

    Sorry, it seems I've wandered off topic.

  11. #11
    per Mearsheimer and Walt:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Isr...Foreign_Policy

    Basically a confluence of Pro-Israeli and Christian Zionist lobbying has out-sized influence on US policy. Despite their differences, these groups can agree on their own Islamophobia and take it out on the Palestians.

    Also, there are other lobby groups that can affect US foreign policy.
    Pro-China business groups were able to get China MFN trading status. And look, China isnt a currency manipulator.
    Some lobbies can out preform other lobbies. The Saudi lobby got a huge arms deal despite the objections from the Israeli lobby.

    The USA first lobby seems to be lacking in power at the moment.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Chrysia View Post
    The person he quoted directly stated that Israel is solely to blame, and constantly tries to shift blame onto both parties rather than owning up to that.



    On-topic, there are many reasons, but one of them is that Palestine is currently in the hands of a group we consider a terrorist organization, and the border war makes the question of where the state lies a little fuzzy.

    Hamas has done nothing that Israel hasn't done with the only minor difference is the type of weapons. This may sound harsh but the fact is people will not call themselves terrorist but they will call themselves freedom-fighters.

    And the bad relationship between Hamas and Israel does not justify the Israel actions in WB and East Jeruzalem.

    Right now Israel refuses to talk with Hamas, but before Hamas even existed you refused to talk with Fatah and Arafat, and before Arafat you even refused to talk about with the Palestinians.

    Palestinians offered Israel a huge bargain in exchange for a sovereign state (see Al-Jazeera and wikileaks leaks) with the 67 borders (with some land-swaps). Israel refused because for them it isn't the best of interest to have peace. Even the US media (which is pro-israel) writes that the Israel government wants conflict because then they can get re elected.

    Also name 1 thing Israel truly did to achieve peace without sabotaging the peace process right away.

  13. #13
    It's actually very simple, yet many disagree with it.

    Israel was founded under the United Nations (meaning the current global authority). Hence what they have is theirs legally. No amount of bitching and moaning will change that until (unless?) the UN changes their minds. And that's not going to happen since Israel is one of the largest economies in the world, going nation by nation. Plus if the UN changes their stance on Israel, nearly everything the UN has mandated will pretty much become useless.

    Not only that, but Israel as a nation has a RIGHT to defend themselves. Have they committed atrocities? Hell yes. So has every other sovereign nation in the world. If you want to argue otherwise, you are a fool.

    But regardless of that, they have the RIGHT to militarily respond to foreign threats to their legal sovereignty, just like any other nation on this planet. That said, most "western" nations regard Hamas, the governing body of Palestine, as terrorists. They haven't exactly done anything to dispute that other than saying "we're not terrorists". Their actions say otherwise.

    So when Hamas stops adopting terrorist attitudes and tactics, earnestly, then they would definitely have more of the worlds ear. And the ear of the USA. When they stop adopting violence as a means to an end, and actually adopt diplomatic solutions instead of launching countless poorly made rockets at Israel, their situation will undoubtedly begin to improve.

    But their demands to take over Israeli territory... Not going to happen. Ever. Not unless the UN is dissolved. And that's not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone currently alive on this planet. The UN being dissolved would cause a World War. How many people want THAT?

  14. #14
    Pit Lord tommypilgrim's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Parts Unknown
    Posts
    2,337
    Because democracy for all is a good idea in theory, unless we disagree with you. Then you're a terrorist.
    Did you like the above post? How about sending me a dollar? I'd have adverts here but apparently that'd break ToS.

  15. #15
    Does the UN do anything at all?

  16. #16
    Old God
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    10,596
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuukon View Post
    It's actually very simple, yet many disagree with it.

    Israel was founded under the United Nations (meaning the current global authority). Hence what they have is theirs legally. No amount of bitching and moaning will change that until (unless?) the UN changes their minds. And that's not going to happen since Israel is one of the largest economies in the world, going nation by nation. Plus if the UN changes their stance on Israel, nearly everything the UN has mandated will pretty much become useless.
    They are in posession of more land then they were "awarded" by the UN. Thats one of the fundamental problems EU/Europe got with the whole situation, we can not whole heartedly support Israel unless they go back to the original borders. Thats pretty much the official policy. Israel is ranked the 41st largest economy btw(2011), not bad for small country, but it's not really one of the largest economies in the world either.
    Last edited by Jackmoves; 2012-11-28 at 11:49 AM.
    The nerve is called the "nerve of awareness". You cant dissect it. Its a current that runs up the center of your spine. I dont know if any of you have sat down, crossed your legs, smoked DMT, and watch what happens... but what happens to me is this big thing goes RRRRRRRRRAAAAAWWW! up my spine and flashes in my brain... well apparently thats whats going to happen if I do this stuff...

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuukon View Post
    It's actually very simple, yet many disagree with it.

    Israel was founded under the United Nations (meaning the current global authority). Hence what they have is theirs legally. No amount of bitching and moaning will change that until (unless?) the UN changes their minds. And that's not going to happen since Israel is one of the largest economies in the world, going nation by nation. Plus if the UN changes their stance on Israel, nearly everything the UN has mandated will pretty much become useless.

    Not only that, but Israel as a nation has a RIGHT to defend themselves. Have they committed atrocities? Hell yes. So has every other sovereign nation in the world. If you want to argue otherwise, you are a fool.

    But regardless of that, they have the RIGHT to militarily respond to foreign threats to their legal sovereignty, just like any other nation on this planet. That said, most "western" nations regard Hamas, the governing body of Palestine, as terrorists. They haven't exactly done anything to dispute that other than saying "we're not terrorists". Their actions say otherwise.

    So when Hamas stops adopting terrorist attitudes and tactics, earnestly, then they would definitely have more of the worlds ear. And the ear of the USA. When they stop adopting violence as a means to an end, and actually adopt diplomatic solutions instead of launching countless poorly made rockets at Israel, their situation will undoubtedly begin to improve.

    But their demands to take over Israeli territory... Not going to happen. Ever. Not unless the UN is dissolved. And that's not going to happen in the lifetime of anyone currently alive on this planet. The UN being dissolved would cause a World War. How many people want THAT?
    Can certainly see why the Palestinians would be upset though, given that the Ottoman Empire ran it into the ground, then they were invaded by the British, who supported an Israeli state enough that they let more Jews immigrate in than there were Palestinians in the first place. By the time the UN supported the creation of two states, I think the problems were already set in motion. At the very least, I'd say my sympathies lie with both sides, who have both been kicked repeatedly by history. It's a complete mess.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Not a single COUNTRY will accept a formation of another country right in the middle of their own country.
    Palestine didn't have a country at the time
    Israel didn't have a country at the time

  19. #19
    Bloodsail Admiral
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    hAntwearpen
    Posts
    1,135
    Quote Originally Posted by ati87 View Post
    Simple because if UN becomes a acknowledge sovereign state Palestinians will have more rights and a stronger position then it has now. Palestinians would be allowed to go to the International court in the Hague for every illegal action taken by Israel:

    example the illegal settlements, demolishing of Palestinian homes, kidnapping of Palestinians, imprisoning Palestinians, restricting the movement of Palestinians both in Gaza and WB, the blockade of Gaza and shooting and killing of Palestinians in their own sovereign state.

    The reason why the US/Israel gives about how a sovereign Palestinian state doesn't help the negotiations is BS. Till this day Israel has done everything to sabotage the peace process (they will never admit it though and will say that both sides are to blame), even when Abbas was making huge compromises Israel still didn't accept his offer (see the leaks from a few years back when Abbas gave Israel a perfect deal).

    Having said that I disagree with 1 thing. At least part of the Palestinians have to go further then the 67 borders and that at least in terms of negotiating they have to aim for the 47 borders. When negotiating you have to ask more then what's reasonable because after your done you will always get less, so asking for what is more then reasonable will mean you will get less then reasonable.



    No they refused to acknowledge Israel. And I've said it often but not a single nation would have acknowledge Israel if the same thing happened in their own country.

    Not a single COUNTRY will accept a formation of another country right in the middle of their own country.
    quoting for excellent post
    also the reason the US support Israel is because its basicly a US colony. Since a lot of American jews moved there
    ∞=0
    0/2 = 0 , ∞/2 = ∞
    2/0 = error , 2/∞ = error
    0*2 = 0 , ∞*2 = ∞

  20. #20
    Over 9000! Snowraven's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2011
    Location
    European Union
    Posts
    9,090
    Because it would make Israel unhappy, and the USA doesn't want Israel to be unhappy.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •