Gun Enthusiast kills 17 year old 'For playing loud music'

[Knight Gil]

Already shown earlier in the thread that Europe has a near effective murder / violent death rate as America. Sure, you're not being shot at but you're being stabbed / bludgeoned / whatever'd to death at pretty much the same clip. So if Europe is effectively just as unsafe as America, WTF is the point of your gun laws?

Except that what you did was manipulating statistics to try to get your point across. You have shown nothing.
Europe is not as unsafe as America for the simple fact that a knife is not as potentially dangerous as a bullet flying at several hundred meters per second. You can't just pick up a knife and go on a killing spree at a school or at the movies. You can't pick up a knife and make 100 people hostages. You can do all that with guns.

[ovm33]

Except that what you did was manipulating statistics to try to get your point across. You have shown nothing.
Europe is not as unsafe as America for the simple fact that a knife is not as potentially dangerous as a bullet flying at several hundred meters per second. You can't just pick up a knife and go on a killing spree at a school or at the movies. You can't pick up a knife and make 100 people hostages. You can do all that with guns.

Oh you can't can you?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19091840

And I manipulated nothing. I linked all sources, which most assuredly were not created by me. I compared all of Europe to all of America because that is a more accurate comparison based on sample size. Then because I knew how much Europeans would piss and moan about being "lumped in" with eastern Europe I gave the option to instead compare your individual country versus individual states as that is also a pretty fair population size to population size sample.

Saying that New York and New England have different figures for murder rates is more on a par to comparing London with Norwich, or Great London with East Anglia (counties, similar to states I guess?) as they fall under the SAME country, SAME laws and SAME government. FACTS state that you are 3x more likely to be murdered in the USA with its lax gun control culture, as you are in the UK where we have some of the strictest gun ownership laws in the world (and our police are not routinely armed due to there being NO NEED).

I'm not asking you to compare New York to New England. I'm asking you to compare The United Kingdom to a region of the United States of comparable size / population. Some of those states have huge population centers as well (cities.) And states are not like counties in the UK. More like Scotland, England, Wales etc are like states. However, states are much larger and have some Independence in creating their own laws. However, as far as this conversation, the 2nd Amendment prevents states from creating laws restricting access to guns. Some INDIVIDUAL states are are 2-3 times larger than all of the UK combined. Most states are broken up further into counties, which would be akin to UK's counties I suppose.

I do also like the fact you ignored my comments regarding safe storage of weapons, which should be at the very least a check in place BEFORE guns are handed over to the happy buyer, to prevent firearm thefts to then be used in crime.

With each gun I've purchased, each came packaged with a gun lock. While not perfect, they do make it considerably harder to "use quickly" by a criminal, and would require some specialized tools to break the lock and make the weapon operable. Vaults in a bank are not perfectly secure and neither are gun safes. So it isn't reasonable to expect the average gun owner to have anything more than a gun safe + lock. As to forcing people to get the safe with a gun purchase... I don't know... Something to think about I guess. It doesn't seem unreasonable. However, forcing a person to keep the gun in the safe kinda defeats the purpose of having a weapon for self defense. I personally have a gun safe which stores all but my CCW weapon and a shotgun. Some more of my weapons are family heirlooms and considerably valuable. Also in the safe are my hunting rifle and ammunition for each weapon. (Excluding that which is loaded in the weapons.)

[PACOX]

I see what you are trying to say, but making guns illegal won't stop people from using them, specially the idiots who do not use them for self protection/hobbies like the idiot who shot a kid for listening to music. I am more than sure that these kind of people are nuts enough to own guns even if they were outlawed. this isn't an ideal world.

Experiencing a bullet wound doesn't make a difference in your argument no matter what side you are on. I'm pretty sure there are many pro-gun people who have served army service on their respective nations, and took a few bullets while at it.

In fact America is too big to enforce gun bans. That and who would take the guns away? America was built with gun totting citizens.

---------- Post added 2012-12-01 at 03:34 PM ----------

But it.Will.Fucking.Make.It.Harder.For.Anyone.To.Get.Hold.Of.One.

It's not that pro-guns can't understand this simple fact. They just are too deep in denial to admit it.

That argument is the same as "Oh, killing is illegal, but it doesn't stop people from killing, so let's make it legal". Fucking, fucking pathetic...

Yeah we would never ended drug abuse if we never outlawed drugs....oh wait.

If you want another example, look up how much Prohibition worked.

[Chrysia]

I absolutely believe this specific person should have his right to own a gun revoked, on the premise that he clearly cannot use it responsibly. Loud music is absolutely not a reason to even think you should push the issue far enough that drawing a gun crosses your mind. Especially in a parking lot you'll be in for what? 5 minutes?

Overall, though, the Second Amendment shouldn't go anywhere.

[Raidenx]

>This thread

[saffi]

>This thread

except he is a comedian doing it to entertain people, and you are taking his words as gospel. Gun rights discussions aren't that simple and straight-forward.

[Buckwald]

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...-jewelry-store

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...,3757942.story

Just two examples of how, no matter the laws or restrictions, people will kill. I know it's cliche but blaming guns on deaths is like blaming the fork because people are fat.

[s_bushido]

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/...-jewelry-store

http://www.ktla.com/news/landing/ktl...,3757942.story

Just two examples of how, no matter the laws or restrictions, people will kill. I know it's cliche but blaming guns on deaths is like blaming the fork because people are fat.

Um, in one of those stories, no one was injured. In the other, the guy allegedly had a crossbow?

Look, I realize how impractical it would be to ban guns completely. But the comparison that's constantly made between a tool designed to kill things, and a tool designed to [insert non-"kill things" activity here] is, and will always be, ridiculous.

[Catta]

Both sources were linked earlier in the thread. Oddly enough one of which was the exact same as the one you linked. And yes, it does include eastern Europe. But America doesn't get to exclude it's unsafe areas and neither do you. But I knew everyone would be up in arms about it so i posted this link as well at the same time:

You exclude Mexico, Panama, Cuba etc do you not?

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 02:59 AM ----------

Yeah we would never ended drug abuse if we never outlawed drugs....oh wait.

If you want another example, look up how much Prohibition worked.

Prohibition did what it was meant to. It made people drink less. Yes there were lots and lots of moonshiners but the overall consumption dropped. Whether or not its worth it is a whole other discussion.

[Knight Gil]

Oh you can't can you?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-19091840

And I manipulated nothing. I linked all sources, which most assuredly were not created by me. I compared all of Europe to all of America because that is a more accurate comparison based on sample size. Then because I knew how much Europeans would piss and moan about being "lumped in" with eastern Europe I gave the option to instead compare your individual country versus individual states as that is also a pretty fair population size to population size sample.

Now replace that knife with a gun. Many, many more would be killed.

Yeah we would never ended drug abuse if we never outlawed drugs....oh wait.

If you want another example, look up how much Prohibition worked.

Despite all that came with prohibition, alcohol consumption decreased. There goes your point. Oh, and my example still stands. Why not make killing lawful if being outlawed doesn't stop it?

[Raidenx]

except he is a comedian doing it to entertain people, and you are taking his words as gospel. Gun rights discussions aren't that simple and straight-forward.

shows how stupid these threads are, and nothing anyone says here will get rid of guns. They always devolve. You either like guns or you dont.

Idk what the fascination is with US gun laws here anyways. Most Americans dont even own them or know anything about them

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 02:16 AM ----------

You exclude Mexico, Panama, Cuba etc do you not?

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 02:59 AM ----------



Prohibition did what it was meant to. It made people drink less. Yes there were lots and lots of moonshiners but the overall consumption dropped. Whether or not its worth it is a whole other discussion.

Prohibition caused violent crime to skyrocket

[Vuljatar]

But it.Will.Fucking.Make.It.Harder.For.Anyone.To.Get.Hold.Of.One.

It's not that pro-guns can't understand this simple fact. They just are too deep in denial to admit it.

Nobody's denying that it would make guns "harder to get hold of". What you don't seem to understand is that while it might make guns cost 20-50% more on the black market (and likely not affect the overall level of criminal gun ownership to any appreciable degree, because of now necessary they are), it will by definition ensure that there are no law abiding citizens in the entire fucking country who are properly equipped to defend themselves.

Can you even begin to understand what that means? It means that all manner of violent crime will become safer, many times over, for criminals to commit. No thug will ever have to decide whether he really wants to risk his life for that guy's wallet, or that woman's jewelry, or the possibility that there might be some easily fencable high-value items in that house. Because there will be no risk. When you know that you are armed and your victims aren't, you can rob people all day and not worry about a thing.

That argument is the same as "Oh, killing is illegal, but it doesn't stop people from killing, so let's make it legal". Fucking, fucking pathetic...

This statement illustrates either a fundamental lack of understanding of... just about everything, or a deliberate attempt to insult and provoke through use of a false dichotomy (one could define it as "trolling").

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 04:51 AM ----------

Idk what the fascination is with US gun laws here anyways. Most Americans dont even own them or know anything about them

Depends on your location, but in general that is not correct. A quick googling suggests that between 30% and 45% of Americans own guns. I live in the north Houston area, and to roughly estimate I would say that over 95% of my local family and friends own at least one gun, and over 65% of my coworkers do.

[Raidenx]

Depends on your location, but in general that is not correct. A quick googling suggests that between 30% and 45% of Americans own guns. I live in the north Houston area, and to roughly estimate I would say that over 95% of my local family and friends own at least one gun, and over 65% of my coworkers do.

It is correct unless 45% constitutes a majority

[Vuljatar]

It is correct unless 45% constitutes a majority

I'm pretty sure that there are people who are not gun owners who still have a familiarity with gun laws.

Most Americans dont even own them or know anything about them

[Deleted]

God bless America with their brave and responsible gun owners who make America a safer place


Infracted.

Infracted? The guy above got infracted for his comment? Funny shit right there since around 25% or even more are gun nuts! Only reason these ones get guns is because they WANT to use it on others to let out their rage/steam because their lifes is shit.

Thank God I live in europe, thats for fucking sure, things are not perfect here but atleast we dont have wannabe peace keepers going around carrying guns like the nutjob in the report in the first post.

[skrump]

Hrm group of teens could of very well become loud and violent when he told them to turn the music down, and you know teens they will spew out threat after threat.
Either way I would need to see footage from the nearest security camera to view the movements leading up to the shooting.

In any case I can understand the guy getting into a panic I mean hell he opened fire on a bunch of teenagers and chances are a security camera wouldn't be able to prove it was in self defense unless it captured one of the teens acting in a threatening manor or brandishing a gun.

[Landin55]

Yeah, I wonder. It might have something to do with the million other ways Sweden and the United States are different but... no, probably not, gotta be an inanimate object's fault.



Quite true, but someone who is crazy enough to murder someone for playing loud music isn't going to be stopped by needing to walk a few steps.

You underestimate the lazy.

[Tierbook]

shows how stupid these threads are, and nothing anyone says here will get rid of guns. They always devolve. You either like guns or you dont.

Idk what the fascination is with US gun laws here anyways. Most Americans dont even own them or know anything about them

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 02:16 AM ----------




Prohibition caused violent crime to skyrocket

It also brought the Mafia to America... so hey it gave us The Godfather so it was all worth it right? =P

[Raidenx]

I'm pretty sure that there are people who are not gun owners who still have a familiarity with gun laws.

knowing the laws is different from knowing about guns.

[Vuljatar]

Infracted? The guy above got infracted for his comment? Funny shit right there since around 25% or even more are gun nuts! Only reason these ones get guns is because they WANT to use it on others to let out their rage/steam because their lifes is shit.

Thank God I live in europe, thats for fucking sure, things are not perfect here but atleast we dont have wannabe peace keepers going around carrying guns like the nutjob in the report in the first post.

Did his insulting sarcasm add anything to the discussion?

How about your deliberately insulting and obviously false accusation that "around 25%" of gun owners are violent psychopaths and "their lifes is shit"? Does that add anything to the discussion? How can you possibly contribute anything if you can't even retain a semblance of civility?

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 05:23 AM ----------

knowing the laws is different from knowing about guns.

I guess I misunderstood your post, I thought you meant knowing about the laws.