Thread: Is it me?

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  1. #1

    Is it me?

    Alric The Bear Tank Armory

    So, basically the thing is, we have wiped nearly 100 times on the stone guardians with my 10 man normal guild group. I was wondering your guy's input on what is going wrong? Is it me? Is it them?

    I have no idea how to link our world of logs, but we are on there, Lords of Destruction on Korialstraz.

    Please advice so we can finally down these gd cats.

    Alric

  2. #2
    You're armory link has you in kitty form so I'm not totally sure but you mostly fine to
    me. Stone guard is a surprisingly technical fight for tanks. The key to handling taunts correctly is this priority:

    Main tank taunts the currently petrifying dog.
    1 MT already has it, there is no taunt required.
    2. OT has it, MT must taunt and OT tAunts the dog with the
    Most energy off of the MT.
    3. At the initial taunt, if neither of the MT's dogs begin petrifying, the OT's dog must be taunted and the OT taunts either of the MT's dogs. When the OT's new dog is about 40 energy behind the MT's NON-PETRIFYING dog, they must trade those two again to get the rhythm set right again. This should leave you with MT with one petrifying and one at about 30-40, and the OT with one at 60-80.

    Hope this helps!

  3. #3
    Here are the logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/230543/


    What exactly is wiping you? Are you getting too many unmitigated Overloads? Then, the tanks need to get better at swapping the dogs. Are you dying from single target damage?

    We were having the second problem with our druid tank the first night of raiding. He was just getting destroyed by Rend Flesh. We found having him reforge hard for Mastery (iirc) and focus on using Frenzied Regen rather than Savage Defense made a huge difference in his survivability on this fight.

    Looking at the logs quickly, I see you're taking nearly 33% more damage from Rend Flesh than your fellow tank. That's going to put a lot of strain on your healers, and you can help relieve a lot of that by prioritizing Frenzied Regen, if you aren't already doing so.

  4. #4
    looking quickly at damage taken over all attempts on your most recent raid night, it appears you have a healing problem. Your raid is simply taking more damage than your healers are healing. Have you tried 3 healing it? Also, it seems like your dps are doing extremely low offhealing, considering you're wiping to raid damage I imagine. Interestingly Eclipse never uses Lay on Hands, and Ratio never uses Sacred Shield. Your mage has no healing taken from evocate, rune of power or incanter's ward... is he even using a lvl 90 talent? I dont see how its possible not to have heals from that.

    Your resto druid - unless I'm seeing things - doesnt cast wild growth even one time. He uses swiftmend 71 times in 11 attempts which is 2-3 times fewer than he should be using it (basically on cooldown)

    Your raid's dps is somewhat low, and your mage is exceptionally low. You need to tell him that arcane is not a viable raiding spec unless you are exceptionally skilled, which he clearly is not. My 466 frost mage did 90k the last time I did stone guards.

    Your deaths overview on that attempt shows 3 deaths to pools and 1 death to chains, which is completely unacceptable especially considering the amount of time and practice your raid members have on the fight. It appears that you did get a wrong explosion, which sucks and you can probably fix by tanking it better.. --BUT-- one or two explosions through the fight SHOULD be healable if A) your raid stops standing in stuff and B) your healers pick it up

    good luck

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 01:01 AM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    Here are the logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/230543/We were having the second problem with our druid tank the first night of raiding. He was just getting destroyed by Rend Flesh. We found having him reforge hard for Mastery (iirc) and focus on using Frenzied Regen rather than Savage Defense made a huge difference in his survivability on this fight.
    Mastery increases armor, bleeds arent affected by armor. Possibly he went crit? Crit is guardian's best stat on (i believe literally) every fight.

  5. #5
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    Your raid's dps is somewhat low, and your mage is exceptionally low.
    I wouldn't say so. As we killed the dogs with http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/g.../?s=688&e=1144 <- this DPS. And our most recent "farm kill" was with this DPS - http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/s...um/damageDone/. So DPS shouldn't be that big of an issue.

    For dog taunting (I (as guardian) tank with pala tank). So very simple, there is only 1 thing you need to remember:
    Always taunt the dog with lowest energy to the petrifieing dog. Which doesn't mean nothing else then taunt the dog that just overloaded.
    And as for the single dog petrifieing in the beginning to this:
    * taunt a random dog from the tank that has 2 to your lonely mutt. After both the dogs you have have reached around 60-70 energy. The other tank with one dog, taunt the petrifieing dog from you. DONE!

    If you fuck up the initial bad petrification, then you will with high probability keep getting wrong overloads. Not an issue when your healers can out heal it (had total of 5 wrong overloads as I was half a sleep when I tanked last time , and I believe no one died). Just let the raid know when a wrong overlaod is inc.

    Chains - people should move apart from each other when they are chained together only on the jasper (afaik that was the chains) petrification and the distance should be until the chains start to glow red. Stop breaking the chains when the dog is about to overload. Your ranged should take into account that if they are chained with melee, they will have to be in melee ranged.

    Cobalt/amethyst - keep moving the dogs slowly so all the bad shit won't land in the same place. On Cobalt phase have someone who can break roots/stuns or is immune for little while, break all the mines one Cobalt is petrifieing. Paladin/hunter can do this even outside the Cobalt phase.

    Keep frenzied regen up, use your healing skillls and damage mitigations on CD or when you know that something is going wrong. That's about it, other than - don't stand in bad shit. One thing though, when you get rooted by the cobalt mine you can shapeshift ( powershift) out it , so find a macro for it.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post

    Mastery increases armor, bleeds arent affected by armor. Possibly he went crit? Crit is guardian's best stat on (i believe literally) every fight.
    It's possible. I'd have to ask out boomkin, since he's the one who helped the bear with the reforging. I haven't been raid leading at all like I used to, so I don't know other classes well anymore.

    I know he changed from what he was using, and he may have gone Mastery to make the melee from the dogs completely negligible. I'm uncertain.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonnillon View Post
    keep moving the dogs slowly so all the bad shit won't land in the same place. On Cobalt phase have someone who can break roots/stuns or is immune for little while, break all the mines one Cobalt is petrifieing. Paladin/hunter can do this even outside the Cobalt phase.
    this ^ so much. I get frustrated every week because our tank seems to love standing still and letting things build up around the melee.. its really f-ing annoying and makes people take way more damage than they would otherwise.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    this ^ so much. I get frustrated every week because our tank seems to love standing still and letting things build up around the melee.. its really f-ing annoying and makes people take way more damage than they would otherwise.
    Hit by cobalt mines 35 times in 11 attempts, you could always install some boss mods as well. Or look at the floor.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by axxey View Post
    Hit by cobalt mines 35 times in 11 attempts, you could always install some boss mods as well. Or look at the floor.
    not necessarily, cuz you're free to break them during cobalt overload, plus as a tank you can sometimes safely pop them, for example when the raid is safe and you have energy to FR heal yourself after. if you're dying to them - or heals are struggling because of it - then it could be an issue, for sure

  10. #10
    Our guild got stuck on this fight one night...kept wiping to the mechanics, mostly chains. After that, we just single tanked it and made it a grobbulus fight. We just had an arms warrior taunt rotate two just to space out the timing of the explosions. That, and focus on mitigation over dps. This method got me top on heals and dps (as tankadin, hopefully it's not too different for bears). We use three healers for this. This greatly simplifies the encounter...at least for us it did. Ignore mechanics and kite!
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  11. #11
    Pit Lord Kuthe's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mindark View Post
    Our guild got stuck on this fight one night...kept wiping to the mechanics, mostly chains. After that, we just single tanked it and made it a grobbulus fight. We just had an arms warrior taunt rotate two just to space out the timing of the explosions. That, and focus on mitigation over dps. This method got me top on heals and dps (as tankadin, hopefully it's not too different for bears). We use three healers for this. This greatly simplifies the encounter...at least for us it did. Ignore mechanics and kite!
    O.O
    I would like to see that in action.

    OT: As far as I can read logs, your priest is taking way to much damage.
    Never break Jasper Chains, the range that gets them should instantly stop casting and run to their person, even if its melee.

    GTFO out of purple puddles and GTFO!!!!! out of Cobalt Traps.

    Chances are it's your DPS being lazy and caring more about DPS meters than staying alive through traps and chains.

    Once the tanks learn the mechanics its simple as pie.

    One of you tank two, and the other tank one.
    Just keep it like that.
    Swap when you need through Tank Macro's and it's the biggest cakewalk.
    You just need to pay attention to meters.
    100 wipes is pretty huge to not grasp the concept though, but keep trying.
    We stopped searching for monsters under our beds when we realized that they were inside us.

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  12. #12
    Well, from what I have been reading, then its not me? We have tried both strategies, and we seem to have better success when I am tanking all three dogs and kiting around the room. We space out the order so one is overloading when ones at 66 and ones at 33. We have one wipe at 300k health left (0.3%) and a couple around 8%. All the rest of the attempts are around 40-60% left then we die.

    When we do the normal strategy it seems we are unable to get past 50-60%. When we try 3 healing it, it seems that we wipe at the same percentage. I am getting extremely frustrated. 96 wipes in a row is not fun

    I do take a lot more damage, but look at my healing done. I am usually over 20k hps by the end of the fight. I am crit build, and am constantly using my frenzied regen. I also tend to break cobalt mines as I am being healed already, and I have rage ready to spend on frenzied regen. My OT was hit/exp based, but based on gear and skill, had to go survivability in order to even live through the fight.

    Looking at our last best attempt last night, I took 7.22 million damage, and healed myself for 3.77 million health in frenzied regen alone, and a total of 4.54 million overall. Is around 2.68 million damage taken too much for me? That is with tanking all three dogs.

    Alric

  13. #13
    Moderator Sonnillon's Avatar
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    You are killing your healers, literally. One or two wrong overloads at start your healers can handle, but when the fight progresses more damage what ever, you're healers go OOM etc. You as a tank, can heal yourself, but think about the healer mana and DPS. The "LFR tactics" can work when you're healers are good and you have gear, but until you don't just stick to how it is suppose to be done.

    BTW we 2 tank and 3 heal the fight, if the overloads are handled by the tanks and DPS has some clue on what to do, killing it with lower DPS is not an issue. It took for me and paladin several pulls to figure the dogs out, to get Feng right even. Just think on how it is suppose be done. Go practice in LFR if you have to. Me and other tank run LFR to get things right. Stuff don't kill and you have less chance to kill your raid, but you can practice, practice and practice.

    Really do it properly. If you read what I said in my previous post, you'll get it.

    You write
    Well, from what I have been reading, then its not me?
    And yes, it is you and the other tanks issue along with your DPS. As you fail to execute the tactics. TBH mate, I don't know what you will do on any of the other bosses as most fights in this Tier require tanks to think and figure the mechanics out - tanks swap etc. The mechanics take a while to click do for some.
    Last edited by Sonnillon; 2012-11-26 at 03:18 PM.
    Mari officer/RL/OT of Punished <- RECRUITING
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    The curse of the Bear, the only tank whose active mitigation not only has RNG included, but only consists of RNG.


  14. #14
    Zookeeper Sunfyre's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kuthe View Post
    O.O
    Never break Jasper Chains, the range that gets them should instantly stop casting and run to their person, even if its melee.
    Chains can be broken during Jasper phase. It does such little damage at that point and your healers should be able to easily heal through it.

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  15. #15
    For dog taunting (I (as guardian) tank with pala tank). So very simple, there is only 1 thing you need to remember:
    Always taunt the dog with lowest energy to the petrifieing dog. Which doesn't mean nothing else then taunt the dog that just overloaded.
    And as for the single dog petrifieing in the beginning to this:
    * taunt a random dog from the tank that has 2 to your lonely mutt. After both the dogs you have have reached around 60-70 energy. The other tank with one dog, taunt the petrifieing dog from you. DONE!
    We do this. When we are actually dog swapping, this is exactly the strategy we use. They are evenly spaced apart after the first overload. I taunt at 50 the overloaded dog, and hit the first overload with two at 50 and one at 100. Then with the swaps ones always going to be going from 0 to 50, while the overloading one is 50 - 100. That isn't a hard concept, and we have got that down.

    And yes, it is you and the other tanks issue along with your DPS. As you fail to execute the tactics. TBH mate, I don't know what you will do on any of the other bosses as most fights in this Tier require tanks to think and figure the mechanics out - tanks swap etc. The mechanics take a while to click do for some
    Read the above statement.

    *****************

    Would our druid healer actually casting wild growth make that much of a difference vs the spells he uses now? Is our raid taking that much more damage then everyone else? Is our priest really that bad?

  16. #16
    We do this. When we are actually dog swapping, this is exactly the strategy we use. They are evenly spaced apart after the first overload. I taunt at 50 the overloaded dog, and hit the first overload with two at 50 and one at 100. Then with the swaps ones always going to be going from 0 to 50, while the overloading one is 50 - 100. That isn't a hard concept, and we have got that down.
    As long as you are doing this, and you are using FR instead of SD, the problem is not you.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post
    Would our druid healer actually casting wild growth make that much of a difference vs the spells he uses now?
    Tell him to make himself intimately familiar with Wild Growth as soon as possible, to the point where he knows which restaurants to take it out to on a date.
    Seriously though, it's a resto druid's bread and butter AoE heal. Just from glancing at the logs, he could cut his Rejuv spam in half, replace that half with Wild Growth, and he would be far more effective. It's not Wrath or the end of an expansion anymore; blanketing the raid with Rejuvs will only work for so long before his mana pool runs dry.

    Also, his Lifebloom uptime is at an absymal 50%. Either direct heal to refresh stacks or reapply Lifebloom once to refresh stacks. All those Clearcasting procs he's missing are costing him more unnecessary mana.

    And his Harmony uptime is at 40%. If he doesn't know how important that buff is to resto druid healing, he needs to make himself aware in a hurry. Maybe take Harmony and Wild Growth on a double-date. *shrugs*
    Last edited by Xarantaur42; 2012-11-26 at 09:48 PM.

  18. #18
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    Do the following things:

    1) Go into a separate channel on vent with your other tank to communicate your tank swapping.

    2) Replace your resto druid. His healing output is bad, he's not using all the abilities available to him (wild growth), he's missing enchants (2) and he's not using the best gems available to him.

    3) Replace your mage. His DPS is low, his raid awareness is bad. He's coming to raids missing enchants (4), he's playing the wrong spec and he's not even hit capped. You wont get far bringing people this unprepared to your raids.

    4) 3 heal stone guard instead of 1.5 healing it (your resto druid counts as half a heal)

    Do these things and I'm confident you'll get a kill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alric View Post

    Would our druid healer actually casting wild growth make that much of a difference vs the spells he uses now? Is our raid taking that much more damage then everyone else? Is our priest really that bad?
    On my kill last week the resto druid in my raid had 16% of his total healing from wild growth alone. Your resto druid is not performing anywhere close to how he should be.
    Last edited by rated; 2012-11-26 at 10:05 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Daetur View Post
    Here are the logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/230543/


    What exactly is wiping you? Are you getting too many unmitigated Overloads? Then, the tanks need to get better at swapping the dogs. Are you dying from single target damage?

    We were having the second problem with our druid tank the first night of raiding. He was just getting destroyed by Rend Flesh. We found having him reforge hard for Mastery (iirc) and focus on using Frenzied Regen rather than Savage Defense made a huge difference in his survivability on this fight.

    Looking at the logs quickly, I see you're taking nearly 33% more damage from Rend Flesh than your fellow tank. That's going to put a lot of strain on your healers, and you can help relieve a lot of that by prioritizing Frenzied Regen, if you aren't already doing so.
    The reforge shouldn't be necessary. Crit build works great for this fight since you build more rage and can then use frenzied regen more often. Since the melee damage is paultry compared to the bleed damage you basically don't need to use savage defense at all.

    Looking at the death logs it appears a number of things are causing wipes:

    People standing in the Amethyst Pools
    People standing too far apart with Jasper Chains
    People getting hit with Cobalt Mine
    And most importantly...The wrong boss is overloading meaning you aren't taunting properly

    Fix all of those things and the fight will be a piece of cake.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-26 at 04:20 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by rated View Post
    On my kill last week the resto druid in my raid had 16% of his total healing from wild growth alone. Your resto druid is not performing anywhere close to how he should be.
    Wild Growth is the go to spell for AoE healing on druids. If your druid doesn't realize it's even in his arsenal I don't want to think of what else he doesn't know. Tell him to fix it and you will see a remarkable improvement in healing output.

    Even still, the main issue is that you have multiple people getting hit by every single avoidable damage mechanic in the entire encounter. If that doesn't get fixed then you won't be making it to the second boss until they nerf the fights. It looks to me like you have people that have never watched a video, read a strategy guide or even bothered to try to understand any of the raid mechanics. They're treating it like LFR and while normal is not exactly the hardest thing ever, it's a big step up from the zergfest-close-your-eyes-and-smash-buttons LFR. You either learn the mechanics and defeat the encounter or you continue failing until the next tier comes out and you can get shiny new LFR gear.
    Last edited by tibben; 2012-11-26 at 10:11 PM.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sunfyre View Post
    Chains can be broken during Jasper phase. It does such little damage at that point and your healers should be able to easily heal through it.
    They -can- be broken during Jasper overload, yes, but when you're at the point where the whole raid is under chains (minus the tanks) and Jasper's spamming Jasper chains nonstop (which happens when the entire raid is under chains), it's probably better just to deal with standing next to your chained partner, which becomes unfortunate when it's a ranged or healer attached to a melee, but even then it shouldn't be that hard to deal with.

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