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  1. #21
    link is in my sig. I'm wearing the DMF trinket again because i can't seem to find a sim or not of whether spirits of the sun or DMF are better, or if i should stick with Qin'Xi's.... Yes i'm not in 4 set because i had good luck on gold coins in heroic Moshu.


    *Side Note: We have no MW monks on our server besides myself that are raiding heroics and im the only MW monk on our server in a 25 man guild that raids. I have no one to sim with or even compare to.... /foreveralone

  2. #22
    The Patient Foxtails's Avatar
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    Yeah, you are very close to getting your 3rd tick with 6k haste, i would undo the haste to crit reforges and see how close you get, also change Mastery to haste on your gloves, and mastery to haste on your boots as well ^.^. I personally would exchange Qin'zis with spirits of the sun because int procs you can't control are never convenient as a healer.

    Also no point in having more then Shoulders + chest unless you're doing Tsulong then you use 4 peice.
    Last edited by Foxtails; 2012-12-14 at 01:47 PM.

    Sig by the amazing Shyama! <Ascension 16/16 H 25man oceanic>

  3. #23
    Yeah also with the 5.1 nerfs, I felt 5% was kinda, meh. Our 4 set to me feels like a slap in the face -_- lol.

  4. #24
    The Patient Foxtails's Avatar
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    Yeah our 4 peice is very underwhelming compared to other healers, very rarely do i find myself in 25H where i'm spending my chi on EvM, literally all spent on fist weaving/uplifting.

    Sig by the amazing Shyama! <Ascension 16/16 H 25man oceanic>

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Foxtails View Post
    Yeah, you are very close to getting your 3rd tick with 6k haste, i would undo the haste to crit reforges and see how close you get, also change Mastery to haste on your gloves, and mastery to haste on your boots as well ^.^. I personally would exchange Qin'zis with spirits of the sun because int procs you can't control are never convenient as a healer.

    Also no point in having more then Shoulders + chest unless you're doing Tsulong then you use 4 peice.
    Why in the world would you want 6k haste?

    3145 in tiger is the most you want, period.

    The only reason you want 3145 (the second extra tick) is that it's almost impossible to get haste so low that you cant get to around 154 haste rating.

    The throughput gained by gaining haste is in most cases related ONLY to longer duration on ReM for more uplifts. Any extra haste other than the minimum to hit that haste cap is a throughput loss because crit scales better with almost every spell we have (except for SCK) point for point.

    So you telling people that they should try to hit an extra cap is horribly horribly wrong.

    If you want to optimize stats, stack spirit or crit.

  6. #26
    My spirit is high already, so I'm just testing the 6k haste to see how it works out. No harm in that. And in 25's a longer duration on ReM is a blessing. Hit that with Thunder and you can get almost a full raid. Just sayin. In 10 mans it'd be a super waste but as stated, in 25's only being able to get 7 people max without Thunder is really lame. I time it to hit thunder right when I see the 8th person get theirs and there's literally .02 seconds left on the first ReM when I hit the Uplift at 3148 haste (out of stance).

  7. #27
    Warchief DirewolfX's Avatar
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    More haste isn't going to get you a longer duration. The longest duration will be just above a haste cap. The shortest duration will be just below a haste cap. The duration gets shorter and shorter until you have enough to get a new tick, and then you get additional time added on, but that's never going to give you more than a 19 second duration or less than a 17 second duration (+/- base tick time/2).

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyse View Post
    My spirit is high already, so I'm just testing the 6k haste to see how it works out. No harm in that. And in 25's a longer duration on ReM is a blessing. Hit that with Thunder and you can get almost a full raid. Just sayin. In 10 mans it'd be a super waste but as stated, in 25's only being able to get 7 people max without Thunder is really lame. I time it to hit thunder right when I see the 8th person get theirs and there's literally .02 seconds left on the first ReM when I hit the Uplift at 3148 haste (out of stance).

    As dire said, the highest the duration will ever be is always the same, and its at 154/3145/6141.

    It's completely unrealistic to expect to hit 154 haste rating. So we instead aim for the second one to maximize ReM, then stack spirit or crit/int as you wish.

  9. #29
    Look at it this way. What increase does going from 3145 to 6141 give you?
    It increases healing on Soothing Mist and SCK.
    It has no noticable effect on uplift or chi burst (since while chi burst has a cast time its short anyway and your limited on chi)
    There might be a new tick for EM but im not sure on that, how often do you even use it anyway.

    Meanwhile your losing out on 3k crit rating. What does that give you?
    More healing on every single healing ability to you have.
    More mana regen.

    6k haste just isnt worth it atm untill we get to gear levels so high that its hard to stay at "only" 3145 haste

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Look at it this way. What increase does going from 3145 to 6141 give you?
    It increases healing on Soothing Mist and SCK.
    It has no noticable effect on uplift or chi burst (since while chi burst has a cast time its short anyway and your limited on chi)
    There might be a new tick for EM but im not sure on that, how often do you even use it anyway.

    Meanwhile your losing out on 3k crit rating. What does that give you?
    More healing on every single healing ability to you have.
    More mana regen.

    6k haste just isnt worth it atm untill we get to gear levels so high that its hard to stay at "only" 3145 haste
    6k haste would give an additional tick on ReM and it would also give more power to SZ eminence healing.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Gorsameth View Post
    Look at it this way. What increase does going from 3145 to 6141 give you?
    It increases healing on Soothing Mist and SCK.
    It has no noticable effect on uplift or chi burst (since while chi burst has a cast time its short anyway and your limited on chi)
    There might be a new tick for EM but im not sure on that, how often do you even use it anyway.

    Meanwhile your losing out on 3k crit rating. What does that give you?
    More healing on every single healing ability to you have.
    More mana regen.

    6k haste just isnt worth it atm untill we get to gear levels so high that its hard to stay at "only" 3145 haste

    I got to the haste number with no problems. 12709 m/5 combat regen in raids too. I was reforging out of haste to lower it extremely to 3148. It's a test for raids. Dispute it as you may but can you guys even REACH the 6k? Because I can so I am testing it. Didn't change any of my gems, just reforged like 2-3 items to get it and that's it.

    So sue me for testing things. Sorry I'm going against the norm and trying things myself. I come here for suggestions but that doesn't mean I have to listen to them. Just because someone wrote that it's right doesn't always mean it is. If that was the case then EJ's forums would be 100% right all the time just because, and everyone knows this to be untrue. As I said I'm testing it for my own benefit and will let everyone know how I feel when I get to this Monday.

    Sorry I like to think for myself. 8 years worth of WoW and raiding back since you could 10 man Stratholm. I've survived this long, pretty sure trying my own thing to just check isn't going to blow the game up :P


    Edit: Does haste still affect auto attack speed? If it does then you forgot uptop to add in "Faster auto attack for fistweaving with BOK" My staff is a 3.30 Attack Speed, but with all this haste it's down to 1.9


    Second Edit: Haste does Effect SCK. I just took off my gear and put it back on. At 22.13% haste in stance SCK now reads "1 Chi, if it hits at least 3 targets. Lasts 1.84 seconds" Before it was a lot slower. Fun fact kids.
    Last edited by Design1685; 2012-12-15 at 06:35 PM.

  12. #32
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    I think the whole in/out serpents stance and with/without 5% haste buff is confusing the heck out of me. I am only in 480 gear, but if you were following the other thread you may know I am reforging out of every piece of spirit I have. I decided to try to get the 12 tick breakpoint. I changed 2 reforges from mastery to haste, 2 enchants from mastery to haste, and 5 gems from crit to haste. All in all I lost 2.5% crit and 3% mastery to gain that 12th tick, which in serpents stance I have 9303 haste and requires I have the 5% buff. I will see how my numbers compare from last week when I get back into the raid on Monday.

  13. #33
    I'm only doing it because I have iLevel 499 equipped.

    At 480 I wouldn't try tbh just because the gear itself doesn't have amazing haste rating. Reforging out of spirit is really really bad because it kills your mana regen. You should be at 3148 haste out of Serpent stance with that item level. The 6k haste you can get easily with higher item levels because, if you look at my toon (link below signature), you can see how I have just pure haste legs etc, but I didn't have to gem haste at all.
    Last edited by Design1685; 2012-12-15 at 07:18 PM.

  14. #34
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyse View Post
    I'm only doing it because I have iLevel 499 equipped.

    At 480 I wouldn't try tbh just because the gear itself doesn't have amazing haste rating. Reforging out of spirit is really really bad because it kills your mana regen. You should be at 3148 haste out of Serpent stance with that item level. The 6k haste you can get easily with higher item levels because, if you look at my toon (link below signature), you can see how I have just pure haste legs etc, but I didn't have to gem haste at all.
    As I said in the other thread I don't think I need that much spirit, and have been steadily decreasing my spirit every week for about a month now. I was around 6k but now I'm at 4.5k and still doing fine.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Chuupag View Post
    As I said in the other thread I don't think I need that much spirit, and have been steadily decreasing my spirit every week for about a month now. I was around 6k but now I'm at 4.5k and still doing fine.
    Glad you don't need Spirit in LFR, or any ability to heal whatsoever.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyse View Post
    I'm only doing it because I have iLevel 499 equipped.

    At 480 I wouldn't try tbh just because the gear itself doesn't have amazing haste rating. Reforging out of spirit is really really bad because it kills your mana regen. You should be at 3148 haste out of Serpent stance with that item level. The 6k haste you can get easily with higher item levels because, if you look at my toon (link below signature), you can see how I have just pure haste legs etc, but I didn't have to gem haste at all.
    I'm not sure what content you're currently progressing through, but in the heroic 25m that I'm progressing through, my spell breakdown significantly favors things such as: Uplift > ReM > Chi Torpedo > (Perfect uptime) SZ > mastery
    except on gimmicky fights.
    So on the majority of fights, which is what I gear for, of my three strongest spells only one benefits from haste. Doing some simple math on my recent Garalon kill says I'd gain around 1.4mil healing from gaining 3k haste for another tick. At the same time, I'd lose 1.1mil from Uplift and .6mil from ReM, not even going into the other spells which scale better with crit.
    Going the haste route, the only possible way it might work better is either if you're keeping near perfect SZ uptime and uptime on boss, which would mean you wouldn't be using SCK as that devalues SZ (thus making the chi better spent on a burst/uplift) or you would be using SCK as it scales well with haste and then chi dumping. SZ scales better with haste, yes, but also the melee portion of eminence healing (assuming perfect SZ, tigers palm by Valen's calc is still pretty bad at around 40k healing/20s if kept up, but if the raid is topped suppose it's going to be a slight HPS increase) is only around 60% of the healing. IE: 40% scales not at all with crit, but .8/crit and .19/crit, while 60% scales at .39 crit/.58 haste. Or:
    Blackout Kick + SZ Crit Scaling average (17% blackout kick, 17% jab, 52% melee,14% tiger strikes, total )
    .17*.77crit + .17*.16crit + .66*.39crit = .4155~ scaling with my breakdown of melee
    .66*.58 = .3828 scaling with same above scaling.
    Granted I didn't have perfect uptime, nor was I using jab etc as often as I could, so the breakdown would change given gameplay oriented around maximizing both those.
    But the overall point I'm trying to make is that crit and haste scaling with SZ is very, very close because of tiger strikes (devaluing haste while making crit more valuable) and the extra attacks which dont scale with haste, blackout kick/jab/tiger's palm, which make a signicant portion of eminence healing still.
    As such, that really limits the "true" benefit of haste scaling to ReM and SCK. I don't SCK because I prefer not stacking spirit. If you're using SCK as you're go to chi-generator, then it's possible haste will edge-out (SCK scales amazingly well with haste, about 2.5x as well as crit) for your overall spell selection, and make it possible to generator a lot more chi (while costing a lot more, so stack that spirit).
    But if you're jabbing for chi, the closeness of crit/haste scaling with SZ/eminence melee is too close for haste scaling to be significantly better (or worse) and that leaves ReM which does not beat uplifts crit scaling combined with ReM's crit scaling, let alone chi torpedo etc.

    As such, the only way I can recommend haste (and even this is still very hazy) is if you're already stacking spirit to chi gen with SCK. If you're going the jab route, then crit will be significantly better. As for which is "superior", logs suggest they're both very close, though logs can be taken for however much you value them, healing is not nearly as easily judged as DPS.

    PS: My gear is just fine, and if I wanted the extra haste I could get it, my iLvl is 503 (504 if I used my valor)

  17. #37
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    Glad you don't need Spirit in LFR, or any ability to heal whatsoever.
    It's not even that difficult to check my toon when I have it in my sig. 4/16 atm and likely 6/16 Monday. Was just putting my 2cents in about how it is possible to get to that breakpoint in lower ilvl gear. My logs were also brought up in the other thread, and you can find them in KTAs logs on Jaedenar if you so desire to pick through them to get some actual material to ridicule me with.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-12-15 at 09:20 PM.

  18. #38
    Moderator Malthanis's Avatar
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    Gentlemen, let's keep it civil.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by gnorrior View Post
    I'm not sure what content you're currently progressing through, but in the heroic 25m that I'm progressing through, my spell
    I'm 6/6 Heroic Moshu 25 man and we're finally going to get to progess now that all the kids finals are done and we will have our raid group back.

    Quote Originally Posted by Malthanis View Post
    Gentlemen, let's keep it civil.
    But I'm not a boy lol

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyse View Post
    I'm 6/6 Heroic Moshu 25 man and we're finally going to get to progess now that all the kids finals are done and we will have our raid group back.



    But I'm not a boy lol
    H HoF and H ToES have similar spell selection with less..."gimmicky" fights like MGV, IMO. Such that your spell selection would look similar to what I gave, unless you're always tank healing or something awkward. Thus, haste solely for another tick on ReM probably isn't worth it.

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