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  1. #1
    High Overlord Dizzy2k's Avatar
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    Need help with rating a shadow in my raid

    Hello,

    I am raiding in a 10 man raid and our very well geared shadow priest seems to lack some damage and we just dont know if this is the case because he does something wrong or because his gear/class just cant pull much more. I thought maybe one of you guys could help me with looking at our logs and his armory. Especially while multidotting he seems to fall off (which should be where shadows pull ahead I would think). Appreciate it!!!

    armory: http://eu.battle.net/wow/de/characte.../Muko/advanced (He got new waist, legs and weapon yesterday, so those are not reforged/enchated, yet)

    WoL: http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/234829/

    regards

  2. #2
    Hmmmm, looking at his armory it seems that he is below the suggested haste plateu. not sure if armory correctly includes goblin racial, but this is a minor detail easily fixed.

    Analysis

    Comparing 2 Fights

    Blade Lord-a fight arguably unfavorable for shadow priest.
    vs
    Elegon-a fight arguably favorable for shadow priest


    His dps is sub-par to that of his gear lvl due mainly to talent choices. On Elegon, your shadow priest could easily be top damage if he took the talents Twist of Fate and Cascade over Divine Insight and Halo. He is simply playing according to standard guides it would seem and staying "Cookie Cutter" for the most part rather then experimenting different talent/glyph combinations on different fights. Twist of Fate can possible have 60%uptime on elegon fight.

    Truth of the matter is, shadow priest are middle to lower pack across the board. In theory, most other classes SHOULD be doing =/> dmg then your shadow priest given similar item lvls.

  3. #3
    High Overlord Dizzy2k's Avatar
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    Ok, thanks for your oppinion . I will tell him the thing about the talents. About the hastecap: As I said, he didnt reforge the new gear, He talked about a cap at something around 8000 haste he needs.

  4. #4
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    He just need 8080 haste for extra ticks from dots, after that is almost imposible to reach the next haste cap level, the only one reachable is the Vp which is 31.5%, but it doesnt matter, after reaching 8080 he should go full critic.

    side note: dont try to put a shadowpriest as a purely dps class, somehow blizzard is trying to make this class a support class with mana cd's, healing cds and also dps, but overall you have to properly compare hes dps vs the fight, right now shadowpriest really low compare to what they were in FL and DS.

  5. #5
    High Overlord Dizzy2k's Avatar
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    Thing is that I have already seen SP's do very competetive dps, especially on multitarget fights. I would appreciate if somebody who knows how t oplay SP well would take a look at for example will or the emperor in our logs. And maybe also a single target fight if possible.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Washuwa View Post
    He just need 8080 haste for extra ticks from dots, after that is almost imposible to reach the next haste cap level, the only one reachable is the Vp which is 31.5%, but it doesnt matter, after reaching 8080 he should go full critic.
    Tell him not to do this, for the reason has been said many times in multiple other threads. First, there is no cap. Second, even after 8085 plateau haste still triumph over crit / mastery.
    Last edited by Qualia; 2012-11-28 at 06:00 PM.

  7. #7
    It only does so on 3+ targets, on single target crit is best past that point.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Nestar View Post
    It only does so on 3+ targets, on single target crit is best past that point.
    It is also never worth it to drop item level gear for haste gear until your right next to the breakpoint. I pull decent dps and I'm not at breakpoint it's really only worth 300 into

  9. #9
    I'm quite new to Spriest but from what I've found and read, changing talents around is the key to improving DPS. Halo is a really good talent, but on certain fights, choosing something else would make more sense. Make sure your SPriest knows the mechanics really well before going into the fight.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaendwich View Post
    Thing is that I have already seen SP's do very competetive dps, especially on multitarget fights. I would appreciate if somebody who knows how t oplay SP well would take a look at for example will or the emperor in our logs. And maybe also a single target fight if possible.
    Looking at your Will of the Emperor Log, the same thing would apply for talent choices.. Twist of Fate for this fight will have Significant uptime, and choosing Cascade would also be a larger dps increase because it can potentially span the whole room (same with on elegon fight when used vs orbs and pylons resulting in huge effect). You also have to understand that your MAGE and WARLOCK who both ALSO should excell at multi-dot should pull similar and higher numbers.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-28 at 10:55 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Barole View Post
    I'm quite new to Spriest but from what I've found and read, changing talents around is the key to improving DPS. Halo is a really good talent, but on certain fights, choosing something else would make more sense. Make sure your SPriest knows the mechanics really well before going into the fight.
    Halo has the highest DPET on patchwork fights assuming remaining stationary 100% of the time, halo will net the highest DPS increase of all the talents. hehe

  11. #11
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    i was playing full haste until i decided to give a try to full crtic after the 8080 haste point, and my dps increased for almost 10k dps, and i already got 1 world first rank in spirit kings normal and a rank 2 in garaj heroic 25 both, so yeah listen to me.

    and yes changing spec for specific fights is a must you shouldnt use the same spec and everysingle fight, so get a big bunch of tomes to change specs for your raid

  12. #12
    Your spriest is doing pretty good considering your guild rank & progression. It saddens me to say your priest is actually doing better than ours, and we're 7/16 heroic! A lot of your raiders are actually doing kinda nice damage, makes me wonder why your progression isn't higher!

    Anyway, like everyone he can improve.

    You can check the overall damage of a certain spec on this website:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Will_of_t...14/60/default/

    That's the top parses... this is all parses

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Will_of_t...14/60/default/

    So from the PoV of the first link he's doing kinda bad, from the PoV of the 2nd pretty good. But his gear isn't average, especially not for someone who raids normal modes. There are some things he can improve on...

    He has 41 divine insight procs & uses mind blast 44 times. There are large patches where he doesn't seem to use Mind Blast at all, and divine insight procs should be used straight away. He uses synapse springs once. There are patches where nothing has dots up. He should be using Cascade, and probably Twist of Fate although that's not a huge deal. He uses SW 22 times, which is a lot less than he could be using it.

    EDIT: Had a quick look at your logs, if you wonder why you're not progressing, as far as I can see it is your tank & healers (tank especially on stoneguard, healers on windlord), so I would deal with that first.
    Last edited by Halaberiel; 2012-11-29 at 03:38 AM.

  13. #13
    High Overlord Dizzy2k's Avatar
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    Alright guys, thanks for all the feedback, helps a lot!!!! I talked to him yesterday and we found out his dot uptime could be improved, too, as well as his mindflay uptime. Furthermore I told him about the specc changing and he agreed to trying it out.

    EDIT: Had a quick look at your logs, if you wonder why you're not progressing, as far as I can see it is your tank & healers (tank especially on stoneguard, healers on windlord), so I would deal with that first.
    Unfortunately I know where the problems are in our raid, but I cannot switch out any players (I am not an officer), instead I want to try to make them improve their performances As a dps class my first concern is on this topic of course. I know that one of our tanks underperforms and I also dealt with some problems our Hpaladin had (now he pulls very competetive healing). In general we dont wipe on enrage timers, we wipe on boss mechanics and bad movement of some players (we are a mix of casual and hardcore players). About the general performance thing I cannot do much else than hoping they improve with practice and time.

  14. #14
    Checkd loggs, he seems to be realy bad at will of the emperor. With hi's gear, breaking 100k or atleast 90k is easy. While he is at 72k.
    Had some of the same diffeculties with a SP in my guild. Got him to fix some multi dott addons and 'bamm' he was at 90k.
    That fight is all about managing youre dotts.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Washuwa View Post
    i was playing full haste until i decided to give a try to full crtic after the 8080 haste point, and my dps increased for almost 10k dps, and i already got 1 world first rank in spirit kings normal and a rank 2 in garaj heroic 25 both, so yeah listen to me.
    I simmed my char and came up with haste and crit equal above the breakpoint, so eh. I can't see swapping a couple of thousand haste to crit providing a massive DPS boost really. You're talking about a few % difference in crit rate, and we have nothing that procs off crits so there's no secondary factors there.

    10k dps is pretty much within RNG for any given fight so I doubt that it's entirely down to swapping to crit.

  16. #16
    Short answer: His DPS is acceptable for the talents he is running with, but the real issue is why he isnt figuring out what talents are best for each fight. A great player would figure this out on his own after a few attempts on a boss. A good player would look it up online... He did neither. My gear is a LOT worse than his (had a blue weapon until yesterday) and my guild has yet to kill any bosses on heroic. My dps on a fight by fight basis is much higher than his. Why should you believe me? Before going casual I healed with a top 60 world guild and outperformed all but 1 healer regularly.

    Long answer:
    His elegon dps is simply bad. He should be crushing the competition. A few weeks back, I managed around 145k dps in shit gear on that fight and we only had a 8 or 9 stack of the debuff on the boss. He should have used at least the twist of faith talent for this fight. It's a static 15% DPS increase for 10 seconds after attacking a mob under 20% hp. With all the adds here, the up time is around 65%. Plus, the last phase the talent really shines. It's where you need the DPS the most and it's also mostly within execute range. You have a constant 15% damage buff with this talent on top of the already 100% to 120% damage buff on the boss. Halo is a questionable talent choice here as well. I suppose if you are keeping your ranged DPS at the edge of the circle to reset your stacks in the last phase it'd be OK, but overall cascade would outperform halo here. You can hit the boss plus all 6 orbs with it every other time they spawn.

    His DPS on Will of the Emperor 10N is also pretty bad. I wouldn't say he should be up there with the lock, but he should be much closer. In my shit gear I do 80k+ in 10man raids. His talent choices here were also very poor. Twist of Faith is practically a requirement on this fight. It's up time is almost as high as on elegon. Cascade is MUCH better than halo here because it hits all the targets and you can use it more frequently. For me, cascade ended up doing almost twice the damage as halo. If we compare the quatity of dot ticks he had over the course of the fight with my latest kill, I had 166 more shadow word pain ticks than him and 145 more vampiric touch ticks. I'm guessing he isn't that great at maintaining his dots across multiple targets.


    I wouldnt go as far as to say he's a bad player, but he isn't a great one. When I see a fight, I get a feel for it and pick my talents based off of that. If I'm not sure whats best, I do some research online. He's obviously not doing this. He needs to start thinking about his talents on a fight by fight basis because as a shadow priest, your talent choices make a HUGE difference (I've heard its a bigger difference for shadow priests than most other classes).


    PS, the haste breakpoint is 8085, not 8080. This barrier does make a big difference on multidotting fights, but on single target fights it isn't as big of a deal.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Washuwa View Post
    i was playing full haste until i decided to give a try to full crtic after the 8080 haste point, and my dps increased for almost 10k dps, and i already got 1 world first rank in spirit kings normal and a rank 2 in garaj heroic 25 both, so yeah listen to me.

    and yes changing spec for specific fights is a must you shouldnt use the same spec and everysingle fight, so get a big bunch of tomes to change specs for your raid
    Stat priority varies by person and the gear they have currently. People need to learn how to sim their own toons if they want any sort of valuable information regarding reforging. Anecdotal evidence of a DPS increase when you changed a few hundred haste into crit does not help the OP. Saying you are getting top logs on a normal mode fight that you way outgear already does nothing to back up your claims. The secondary stats are almost identical in weight when you get to the gear level you are at. Shadow is way more RNG based now, so seeing those kinds of DPS swings is not out of the ordinary. But you're 1337 so we should all "listen to you"....

  18. #18
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    It seems everyone got a really bit offended by what i said because it harm every one theory but in fact if u reach the 25% haste or 24.98%, its a waste of stats if u keep stacking haste, its a waste unless u can reach the next free dot which im pretty sure is 40% for swp or DP, if u want to reach the next dot for VT just get the 4 pc, but is much better to stack crit after the 25%, u can go check most of the top shadowpriest on top guilds, in the other hand you are not forced to read what im posting and u can stick with your own conclusions, i did mine and it worked very well for me.

    And about simms, they are made for almost perfect rotations with not many situations, is imposible to simulate the enviroment or a fight or a strat, i always queue for LFR and in progress i always change specs and reforge, and my conclusions have more "reality" than a simulation.
    Last edited by Washuwa; 2012-11-29 at 11:41 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Schaendwich View Post
    Alright guys, thanks for all the feedback, helps a lot!!!! I talked to him yesterday and we found out his dot uptime could be improved, too, as well as his mindflay uptime. Furthermore I told him about the specc changing and he agreed to trying it out.



    Unfortunately I know where the problems are in our raid, but I cannot switch out any players (I am not an officer), instead I want to try to make them improve their performances As a dps class my first concern is on this topic of course. I know that one of our tanks underperforms and I also dealt with some problems our Hpaladin had (now he pulls very competetive healing). In general we dont wipe on enrage timers, we wipe on boss mechanics and bad movement of some players (we are a mix of casual and hardcore players). About the general performance thing I cannot do much else than hoping they improve with practice and time.

    If your shadow priest is specd into FDCL and DI, it would inversely effect the uptime of mindflay. If he's clipping to early, that is a separate issue.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Neekodango View Post
    If your shadow priest is specd into FDCL and DI, it would inversely effect the uptime of mindflay. If he's clipping to early, that is a separate issue.
    This. When I'm running FDCL and DI (but mainly FDCL) my mind flay uptime is tiny, you need to look at mindflay and mind spike together really.

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