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  1. #1

    [Prot]The impact on SW on the value of haste and exp. Why not to hard cap exp with SW

    Okay. Just some random thoughts of tonights math calculations.
    I have been thinking about starting posting some threads about some harder paladin tank issues and harder choices in gear/stats/talents and this is my first post about this. There are so many misconceptions about how rotation, stats and talents interact which eachother. All and all paladin tanks are very complex at the moment and there are so many different ways to go around. This is a very basic post covering the most important aspects of how SW and haste/exp interracts. There are more smaller aspects which I do not cover all here. This is simply an explanation why I am not expertise capped myself.

    Anyone interested in the maths and a more in depth reasoning behind this, feel free to PM me. I tried to keep it simple here

    Usually getting alot of questions why I am not expertise hard capped. One of the reasons I will cover here.

    I have previously done alot of math myself earlier on in this expansion about which stats to go for etc. One of the things I found out was that for me personally, the hit > soft cap exp > haste > hard cap exp > mastery worked out the best in contrary to the popular hard cap exp before haste/mastery. Not saying hard capping expertise is bad, just saying I preferred haste over it. This was something that I backed up very solidly with my own math. Basically as many people forget that Judgement is not affected by expertise after soft cap. One thing I did very poorly though, is recalculate this as I gained more item level and therefore more gear. Though this is not the point of this post.

    I was reading a bit on MainTankadin, specifically in this thread

    http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=4&t=33211

    and got a bit intrigued about where the arguments and thecks math led.
    Especially reading the last page.
    Basically they did the exact same math that I did myself earlier in this expansion, however, this made me recalculate using my own current raid buffed stats.

    Sitting on 32.8% melee haste and 9.26 expertise. I plotted the values.
    Extremely long story short.

    Expertise increases my HoPo regen by 0.001383203 per rating and haste by 0.001266153.
    Now, I have not been exactly mathematically correct with all the roundings etc so expect a small margin of error.
    This would cause my current stat priority to be a bad one if you take into consideration only the HoPo regen part.
    Will leave out the other effects of Haste + Expertise for now and only focus on the HoPo.

    However, I am a vivid user of SW. I use it on almost every fight with very few exceptions. What is important though is how SW interracts with the HoPo regen of haste and expertise.
    Ever since MoP released and doing extensive tests on all talents, I found that I very much prefered SW over HA. This is my personal choice and why I have made this choice, I am not going to argue about in this thread. Though it could very well be the topic of another thread. The rest of this thread will however shed some insight on it for those with a good ability to connect the dots. Generally, I just feel SW is alot stronger and has more uses, and really IMO hard stacking haste greatly increases the value of SW over other talents. But hey, now I derailed, lets get back on topic.

    I am not going to bore people with a lot math here. Simply put it I am going to show the graph of how much HoPo each point of stat gives me at my current values of 32.8% haste and 9.26 expertise with consideration of SW uptime.

    Basically, what you see here is the increase of HoPo per point of the stat on the Y axis and how it scales with the uptime of SW, which would be the x-axis.

    Ymin = 0
    Ymax = 0.002
    Xmin = 0
    Xmax = 1 ( 100% uptime to show how each stat scales during SW )

    Red graph = Expertise
    Blue graph = Haste

    Now also remember that these stats are with my EXTREMELY haste stacked values and low stacked expertise, so for anyone else who probably have less haste, haste would be even more favored.



    Basically, because the rotation changes from CS>J to J>CS during SW with SW talent, the value of expertise and haste greatly changes.
    For me at 32.8% haste and 9.26 expertise, as long as I got over 16% uptime on SW, haste will be better even at my rating for pure HP regen.

    Any fight with tank switches ( alot of them ) or any fight with phases with alot of damage going out will also favor haste even more as the uptime of HW got skewered. Naturally SW is used when you have alot of vengeance + is taking alot of damage a.k.a. when your tanking or when your expecting a big chunk of physical damage incoming like the titan gas phase on WotE.

    Now, the uptime of SW is greatly dependant on the duration of the fight.
    During this weeks kill of Feng Heroic ( one of the simplest tank and spank fights ).
    I had an uptime of 18.6% which favors haste. Though, this tank involves tank swapping, so the actual uptime is closer to 25-28% as I was tanking more than the other tank. Which would of course, even at my haste values, make haste alot more valuable than the expertise cap.

    But wait! THERE IS MORE ( Billy Mays yo )

    This is assuming that the damage taken is consistant. Lets instead assume that we have a fight where the damage is extremely spiky for a short duration where you will want to use HW defensively for the increased 20% healing received, healing done, damage done ( this all scales extremely well with eachother but that is a different topic ), but mostly, increased HoPo regen.

    Lets say a titan gas on WotE, or even better, tanking all the 6 adds on Empress P2.
    Now, the adds on Empress P2 die fairly quickly. Checking our logs on Empress, I took all the 6 small adds therefore taking huge damage. Just tanking and spanking, no kiting or whatnot.

    From that I had all adds picked up. The first add died after 15 seconds and the second add after 30 seconds. That means that for the first 2 adds I can have 100% uptime of SW. Now checking the graph, that shows how hard haste is favored for this kind of situation.
    The third add died after 42 seconds still giving me around 70% uptime. After 3 adds are dead, the damage taken is really trivial so any point after this is not worth counting.

    Now what conclusions can we draw from this? As said earlier, this graph is considering my extreme haste values and extreme low exp values. Even at these values haste and expertise is quite even, depending on fight length haste or exp is slightly favored for me using SW. However on any fight where HW is used as a major cooldown or any fight involving tank swaps, haste instead takes a gigantic lead. Now for anything not at my haste values, this would be even more skewered. With my values, even for some reason I just managed to have 10% uptime on HW, even at 10%, the difference is tiny between haste and expertise, which I believe that fights were the uptime is alot higher highly compensates for this. ( and 10% is unrealistically low even for a 1 tank fight ).

    However, does this only apply to people using SW? Without using Sw, here are some values showing how much each point of exp/haste increase your HoPo regen.

    0% haste 7.5 exp
    Expertise: 0.0007843137
    Haste: 0.00092897
    Result: Haste is 18% better at 0% haste 7.5exp for HoPo regen.

    0% haste 14 exp
    Expertise: 0.0007843137
    Haste: 0.0009831674
    Result: Haste is 25.35% better at 0% haste and 14 exp for HoPo regen.

    15% haste 7.5 exp
    Expertise: 0.0010372549
    Haste: 0.0010837406
    Result: Haste is 4.48% better at 15% haste and 7.5 exp for HoPo regen

    15% haste 14 exp
    Expertise: 0.0010372549
    Haste: 0.0011306425
    Result: Haste is 9.00% better at 15% haste and 7.5 exp for HoPo regen

    So what does this mean? Yes, at lower stat values haste is better than exp for HoPo regen without SW
    Also, for anyone stacking mastery, haste is better than expertise for HoPo regen without SW after soft cap has been reached. As if you do not go haste you will have 0% haste at 7.5 expertise.

    So, what is the catch? The drawback is of course is that expertise gives smoother HoPo regen, which means that you can get parried several times in a row with your CS. However as J always gives HoPo at soft cap, no matter how unlucky you are you will not get 0 HoPo regen even if you get a parry streak.
    I can not raise my hand and say that I personally have died from a parried attack yet. Of course it is impossible to tell how many times increased HoPo regen from haste has saved me, so impossible to compare these. So this is of course a matter of personal choice. Personally I do not think parried attacks are a huge factor since one parried attack is not the entire world, and having two in a row almost never happens, and when it does, not the end of the world either. So, this is once again the standard argument between damage smoothening and damage reduction. However, this is more between damage smoothening and damage smoothening. This is a personal choice where no decision is the correct one.

    Graphs on HoPo regen with AW on different ratings

    These graphs have the exactly same settings as the previous graph. So if you wonder about what the x and y axis are, scroll up.

    Graph 1
    Red: Expertise HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste ( expertise above 7.5 below 15 )
    Blue: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 7.5 expertise
    Black: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 14 expertise





    Graph 2
    Red: Expertise HoPo regeneration value at 15% haste ( expertise above 7.5 below 15 )
    Blue: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 15% haste 7.5 expertise
    Black: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 15% haste 14 expertise






    Anyone interested in the maths and a more in depth reasoning behind this, feel free to PM me. I tried to keep it simple here
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2013-08-25 at 11:06 PM.

  2. #2
    How come you never link your armory? :P

  3. #3
    I actually have linked my armory before, but would get to much hate on my intellect items and 1 agility item Maybe if I get some good luck with drops and the RNG gods stop hating me I would feel less ashamed linking armory

  4. #4
    Fluffy Kitten Fhi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I actually have linked my armory before, but would get to much hate on my intellect items and 1 agility item Maybe if I get some good luck with drops and the RNG gods stop hating me I would feel less ashamed linking armory
    You can always put it in a signature, then say something like "Thou shalt not question intellect gear". Besides, you have a solid reason and anyone who sees you post knows that you know your stuff, so why worry?

    Paladin and D3 Moderator | MMO-C Guidelines | Signature and avatar art by Dancing Hare

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Fhi View Post
    You can always put it in a signature, then say something like "Thou shalt not question intellect gear". Besides, you have a solid reason and anyone who sees you post knows that you know your stuff, so why worry?
    The Firefly will consider this.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Okay. Just some random thoughts of tonights math calculations.[/b]
    Your post is very long but pretty interesting. I know you said you didnt want to discuss it here but just in brief - Does SW's mitigation gain really match HA's? I wouldnt think that quicker judgements should make that much of a difference.

  7. #7
    Added a new section in the end. CHECK IT OUT. How different values affect HoPo regen WITHOUT SW.

    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    Your post is very long but pretty interesting. I know you said you didnt want to discuss it here but just in brief - Does SW's mitigation gain really match HA's? I wouldnt think that quicker judgements should make that much of a difference.
    Quicker judgement is not the only gain of SW But yeah, you should probably read what I just added down below in the first post about what happens if you do not use SW.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    Added a new section in the end. CHECK IT OUT. How different values affect HoPo regen WITHOUT SW.



    Quicker judgement is not the only gain of SW But yeah, you should probably read what I just added down below in the first post about what happens if you do not use SW.
    Ah yes that's right, the healing taken definitely helps as well. Not that it really matters but does a shield throw proc count as a spell cast too (so it cant be parried)?

    I really like divine purpose but I'm starting to think as a tank it'd be more effective to have one of the other cooldowns for on-demand mitigation.

  9. #9
    I have nothing of substance to add, but just so you know "But wait! THERE'S MORE!" is Ron Popel, not Billy Mayes, Ron is the original pitchman.

    God rest my Pocket Fisherman.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Shelly View Post
    I have nothing of substance to add, but just so you know "But wait! THERE'S MORE!" is Ron Popel, not Billy Mayes, Ron is the original pitchman.
    Very true that I just get Billy Mays smile in my head when I hear it.

  11. #11
    intelligence is a funny thing - you're clearly well spoken but some of your grammar cracks me up :]
    smoothening isn't a word - smoothing works
    axis vs axel

    I'm confused by your graphs though - the red seems to indicate that expertise has linear diminishing returns per point, but I didn't think hit/exp had any DR?

  12. #12
    I wrote the post at 7 AM after being up all night just before going to sleep, grammar was not my main concern. Axel is the word for axis in my own language

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Firefly33 View Post
    I wrote the post at 7 AM after being up all night just before going to sleep, grammar was not my main concern. Axel is the word for axis in my own language
    oh wow your english is really good then haha

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    oh wow your english is really good then haha
    Axel felt so wrong when I wrote it but when looking at the pillow it felt so right.

  15. #15
    in an example of our calculations you went from 0% haste to 15%, however i don't see how helpful the 0%'s are as raid-buffed you have 15%.
    a 15% and 25% look would have been better for providing helpful results instead of the 0% 15% you have her.
    also i didn't see any mention of the plateau's where haste has lowered the cd on spells by .5/1.0/1.5 which are important points as they reduce globals between re-casts and foil your "haste is linear" look as reducing the spell from 8 sec cd to 7.8 does nothing as globals will mean it' still 8 or your spending "idle time waiting that extra 0.2 sec for each cast which builds up quickly on a 8 sec spell over a several minute fight.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  16. #16
    Graph 1
    Red: Expertise HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste ( expertise above 7.5 below 15 )
    Blue: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 7.5 expertise
    Black: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 14 expertise

    do you mean 15% expertise at the black line, or is there a reason for it to be 14%?

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Shaoshi View Post
    Graph 1
    Red: Expertise HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste ( expertise above 7.5 below 15 )
    Blue: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 7.5 expertise
    Black: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 14 expertise

    do you mean 15% expertise at the black line, or is there a reason for it to be 14%?
    No I do mean 14%. I picked 14% since it seemed like a probable choice for people. People that are close to the exp cap but just not quite there. Figured a sample value there would be interesting.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 01:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    in an example of our calculations you went from 0% haste to 15%, however i don't see how helpful the 0%'s are as raid-buffed you have 15%.
    a 15% and 25% look would have been better for providing helpful results instead of the 0% 15% you have her.
    also i didn't see any mention of the plateau's where haste has lowered the cd on spells by .5/1.0/1.5 which are important points as they reduce globals between re-casts and foil your "haste is linear" look as reducing the spell from 8 sec cd to 7.8 does nothing as globals will mean it' still 8 or your spending "idle time waiting that extra 0.2 sec for each cast which builds up quickly on a 8 sec spell over a several minute fight.
    Paladins scale with melee haste, not spell haste. Some of our GCDs scale with spell haste but all our CDs scale with melee haste which ulitmately makes the spell haste GCDs do nothing. Only thing that scales with spell haste in practice is EF and SS. Also the melee haste buff does not actually give melee haste, it just gives auto attack haste, so it has no effect on CDs and GCDs.

    Also raid buffed spell haste = 16.5% as 1.10*1.05=1.165 because haste scales multiplicative with itself.

    Haste also affects our GCD, so there are no magic 0.5, 1 and 1.5 sec plateus. ( Until after 50% haste )
    Until GCD cap at 50%, our spells do scale linearly.

    Judgement CD = GCD*4
    CS CD = GCD*3
    Cons+HW CD = GCD*6

    etc etc. My GCD is currently just below 1.13s.

    If we scaled with spell haste my GCD would already be capped at 1 as my current spell haste with buffs is almost 54%.

    So using 0% is actually very valid as that is exactly how much haste someone who got, well, 0 haste rating would have.
    Raid buffs gives nothing.
    Last edited by Firefly33; 2012-11-30 at 12:14 PM.

  18. #18
    last time I logged on spell haste was effecting the cd's of judge/CS etc IF spell haste was higher than melle haste.

    with the fact that seal is giving a flat 10% and the raid buff ontop the 16.5% compared to the melle "base" of 10% means it was effecting my spell cd's maybe thats fixed now and I hadn't noticed the way i realised it last time was when seal switching the cd's would change will ahve to test when I get online later that it's not been "fixed"
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  19. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by dennisdkramer View Post
    axis vs axel
    The way Finnish (and I guess Swedish too) say axis is actually like axel. I have a lot of problems with that word too, but just wanted to clarify.


    Onto the actual topic. Once again a great post, Firefly33. I think it's good to see how well haste actually works (especially with SW).

    I'd like to give my point about hit and expertise capping. The point of hit and expertise capping was never to get the maximum amount of survivability, it is to provide consistency. In a lot of situations in heroic mode raiding there's a risk of dying if something goes unexpectedly. The fact that hit and expertise are CLOSE to haste/avoidance makes it, in my opinion, better in heroic modes just because of the fact that you always know what you can expect and time your other stuff around that.

    Obviously, this isn't the case for probably most of the people on this forum, and based on this math and actual stuff that happens in the raid, I would recommend haste to anyone doing normal modes or early heroic modes. Great post.

  20. #20
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    Completely off topic but in my guild one of our members is a swede (who lived in finland for a long period) had a pet wasp called Snopplodder with an umlaut on 1 of the o's I can't remember which one though, think it was the first. If that means what I think it does, all of you guys are batshit crazy.

    Ps. this forum needs more brits

    On topic though, this is something I'll be testing as I'm looking to try out every one of the builds that mathematically and practically work. I finish my first semester at university in 2 weeks today so I'll be online and playing solidly for a month starting Saturday 15th December and my guild will help me get some raid gear to make valid tests out of this.

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