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  1. #1

    Ability Ideas for our beloved Rogues

    I think we all can agree on rogue play style haven’t moved very far since vanilla, except cataclysm did some things to spice subtlety up and in the right direction. This thread is about improving/inventing new finishers that we can discuss and maybe hopefully catch Blizzard’s attention on the matter. Eviscerate, Envenom and FoK spam is getting old. Crimson Tempest was a move in the right direction but it’s not enough to justify the changes or nonexistent changes being made to the rogue class overall.
    When posting please try to be constructive and give a reason why you think X or Y would be overpowered, and what could be different. May it be numbers or just purely mechanics involving both PvE and PvP. Both perspectives are important, so please share.

    Area of Effect

    Toxic Mix(Animation: Old Poison Proc): A finishing move that combines your two equipped posions by 4/8/12/16/20(Number of CP’s) seconds, to create a powerful mixture that empowers your Shiv ability, causing it to not have a cooldown, though the Shiv Effect CD remains and increasing the damage by n%. During this time a new ability is available called Posion Bomb. Cooldown 3 minutes. Cost: 30 energy

    Posion Bomb(Animation:Lord Walden’s green gas or Professor Putricides green ooze that explode): Your daggers fill with venomous poison, exploding in a burst of poison gas in a radius of 8 yards of the caster(or a 30 yard range – throwing a vial), causing the victims blood veins to be extremely vulnerable, spreading Rupture from your current target. 2 charges, with a 8 second recharge, giving a maximum of 4 casts. Cost: 50 energy

    Assassination: Ruptures that are spread via Poison Bomb can benefit 25% of the damage done from the Venoumous Wounds(talent) without regaining 10 energy every time the damage procs , or it would cause an overflow of energy and making it far superior for Assassination than Combat or Subtlety.

    Combat: As Combats area of effect/cleave damage is already quite strong so it would only spread Rupture normally. Any suggestions how to tweak something cool into Combat as well is greatly appreciated.

    Subtlety: In addition to Poison Bomb subtlety would also get one passive ability and one ability. As I believe Subtlety area of effect damage need some love, this is one simple way to improve this further while still keeping some of the subtlety signature abilities and playstyle.

    New Passive Ability: Blood Frenzy(Subtlety): Every time Rupture ticks you would gain a stack of Hunger for Blood, stacking up to 10 times. You can only gain one stack each 0.5 seconds. (I thought of making it stack 20 times, but only making 10 stacks usable at highest, though it would make Anticipation the cookie-cutter and I want to avoid that)

    New Ability: Hunger for Blood(Subtlety - Could be old HfB animation on targets rather than the caster): Unleash Blood Frenzy, causing Rupture to burst on its target, causing (1/1.5/2/2.5/3)% pr stack of Blood Frenzy of Rupture’s total damage instantly. Cost: 40 Energy.


    Single Target

    Code of Shadows(all speccs): Empowers your next two finishers, causing the first finisher (5/10/15/20/25)% increased efficiency while the last finisher is dependent upon what first finisher were used.
    Recuperate -> Deadly Throw = Transfusion Throw – Heal your target for 10% of its maximum health. Cannot be cast on yourself.
    Recuperate -> Slice and Dice = Your auto attacks for the next 5 seconds heal 50% of the damage done to nearby players.
    Recuperate -> Rupture = Increases healing done to you for 8 seconds by 25%.
    Recuperate -> Eviscerate = Sacrifice 10% of your own health to do 20% of your current health to the target.
    Slice and Dice -> Recuperate = Rapidly increase Recuperate halving the duration, 3% every 1.5 sec. – 15 sec duration.
    Slice and Dice -> Deadly Throw = Quick Throw – Cast 3 throwing knifes for 50% of Deadly Throw’s damage.
    Slice and Dice -> Rupture = Halves the duration of Rupture.
    Slice and Dice -> Eviscerate = Energy regeneration halved, damage increased by 100% for 5 seconds.
    Eviscerate -> Recuperate = Every time recuperate ticks it does half the amount of damage to nearby target as it heals, reduced by mitigation effects of cause.
    Eviscerate -> Deadly Throw = Execution Throw – Increases the damage of your next Deadly Throw by 150%
    Eviscerate -> Rupture = Rupture deals 50% of its total damage instantly.
    Eviscerate -> Slice and Dice = Increases your auto attack damage by 10% for half of the duration of slice and dice
    Rupture -> Deadly Throw = Causes your Deadly Throw to deal an additional 150% damage as a bleed over 3 seconds, ticking once every second.
    Rupture -> Slice and Dice = Your auto attacks strike in the veins of your target, causing Rupture to last up to (8/12/16/20/24) seconds longer depending on how long the original duration was.
    Rupture -> Eviscerate = Eviscerate consumes Rupture and does its damage instantly together with Eviscerate. The rupture damage cannot be a critical strike.
    Rupture -> Recuperate = Bleed effects on you does 50% less damage for 8 seconds.

    I was messing around with Kidney Shot aswell, but decided it maybe would be too much for a single ability.

    Thanks for reading and your feedback!

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxyo View Post
    Single Target

    Code of Shadows(all speccs): Empowers your next two finishers, causing the first finisher (5/10/15/20/25)% increased efficiency while the last finisher is dependent upon what first finisher were used.
    Recuperate -> Deadly Throw = Transfusion Throw – Heal your target for 10% of its maximum health. Cannot be cast on yourself.
    Recuperate -> Slice and Dice = Your auto attacks for the next 5 seconds heal 50% of the damage done to nearby players.
    Recuperate -> Rupture = Increases healing done to you for 8 seconds by 25%.
    Recuperate -> Eviscerate = Sacrifice 10% of your own health to do 20% of your current health to the target.
    Slice and Dice -> Recuperate = Rapidly increase Recuperate halving the duration, 3% every 1.5 sec. – 15 sec duration.
    Slice and Dice -> Deadly Throw = Quick Throw – Cast 3 throwing knifes for 50% of Deadly Throw’s damage.
    Slice and Dice -> Rupture = Halves the duration of Rupture.
    Slice and Dice -> Eviscerate = Energy regeneration halved, damage increased by 100% for 5 seconds.
    Eviscerate -> Recuperate = Every time recuperate ticks it does half the amount of damage to nearby target as it heals, reduced by mitigation effects of cause.
    Eviscerate -> Deadly Throw = Execution Throw – Increases the damage of your next Deadly Throw by 150%
    Eviscerate -> Rupture = Rupture deals 50% of its total damage instantly.
    Eviscerate -> Slice and Dice = Increases your auto attack damage by 10% for half of the duration of slice and dice
    Rupture -> Deadly Throw = Causes your Deadly Throw to deal an additional 150% damage as a bleed over 3 seconds, ticking once every second.
    Rupture -> Slice and Dice = Your auto attacks strike in the veins of your target, causing Rupture to last up to (8/12/16/20/24) seconds longer depending on how long the original duration was.
    Rupture -> Eviscerate = Eviscerate consumes Rupture and does its damage instantly together with Eviscerate. The rupture damage cannot be a critical strike.
    Rupture -> Recuperate = Bleed effects on you does 50% less damage for 8 seconds.
    I really like the idea of these combo'd finishers, but we'd need to be able to use finishers more frequently for it not to feel even more resource starved than we currently do, in my opinion.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by discoepfeand View Post
    I really like the idea of these combo'd finishers, but we'd need to be able to use finishers more frequently for it not to feel even more resource starved than we currently do, in my opinion.
    Yes.. I see your point. I did think of Code of Shadows to be an 30 second cooldown, and then just being free to use. It would spice up the rotation while still keeping it something that is awesome to use.

  4. #4
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Energetic Recovery reworked, energy regeneration on rupture ticks rather than slice and dice.

    Nightstalker / Subterfuge / Shadow Focus

    Nerve Strike / Combat Readiness / Cheat Death

    -Cheat Death reworked to grant the rogue 5% of total health and make him immune to damage and loss of character control for 2 seconds, effect cannot happen more than once per 2 minutes.

    Leeching Poison /Morbid Thirst / Improved Recuperate

    - Morbid Thirst grants the rogue 2.5% of maximum health when Rupture deals damage
    - Improved Recuperate increases the healing of recuperate by 2% and reduces damage taken while recuperate is active by 10%

    Burst of Speed / Grappling Hook / Phantom Hunting

    -Burst of Speed reworked. 45s cooldown, removes movement impairing effects, grants immunity to movement impairing effects for 3s and increases movement speed by 100%
    -Grappling Hook, 1m cooldown draws the rogue to the target location over 1.5s, if cast where a target is located it snares them for 3s.
    -Phantom Hunting. Your stealth ability now has a 30s cooldown, only lasts for 5s, but may be used at any time. Phantasmal Stealth doesn't break until you have received damage from 5 sources. Replaces Vanish & Stealth.

    Prey on the Weak / Serrated Blades / Paralytic Poison

    -Serrated Blades Reduces Auto-attack and Poison damage dealt by 90% , Damage dealt by Eviscerate reduced by 50%. Strike damage increased by 125% (obviously would need testing on exact percent increases) Rupture damage increased by 50%

    Shadow Affinity / Toxin Affinity / Sanguine Affinity

    -Shadow Affinity Ambush, Backstab, Mutilate, and Sinister Strike now deal 15% shadow damage and slows your target by 50% for 8 seconds when used from behind your target.
    -Toxic Affinity Deadly Poison now grants you a combo point when it deals damage, and leave a puddle of poison dealing 100% of Deadly Poison's damage if standing in the puddle for more than 4s.
    -Sanguine Affinity Increases the duration of Rupture by 12 seconds, and when it deals damage increases your movement speed by 30% for 2s

    __

    -Shadowstep reduced to 20s cooldown.
    -Dirty Tricks baseline
    -Deadly Throw baseline
    Last edited by Speaknoevil; 2012-12-06 at 07:58 AM.

  5. #5
    Some random ideas, ignoring all OPness.

    Gas Bomb - Drops a gas cloud on the ground that puts a light stacking damage/movement dot on anything that passes through it. last 6 minutes on 30 second cooldown. The idea is that it's VERY easy to avoid, but as the fight goes on, you start to have more and more poison gas everywhere making it harder for casters et al to run around avoiding the all. I don't think many classes have a mechanic like this atm so would be different.

    Target Lock -Jump on to the targets shoulders, ala that Goblin from new deadmines, and keep stabbing them in the head for the duration of the effect. Their AOE can still hurt you though.

    Burning Blind - Causes the target to enrage for the duration of the blind effect, blindly flailing it's weapons about and attacking any player that comes near it.

    Scorpion's Kunai - Shout "GET OVER HERE" and throw the kunai at a player to pull them back to you.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Noxyo View Post
    Code of Shadows(all speccs): Empowers your next two finishers, causing the first finisher (5/10/15/20/25)% increased efficiency while the last finisher is dependent upon what first finisher were used.


    I couldn't resist.

    Personally the reason why I refuse to play Invoker is the same reason as why I don't like this idea. Too much to memorize and keep track of. I'm all for new interesting abilities but don't combine finishers. If you really want to combine things, make combo point generators combine into different finishers. Example, Mutilate->Dispatch->Envenom does the normal Envenom effect + a guaranteed poison proc straight off the bat. Mutilate->Mutilate->Envenom increases the damage of your Envenom by 20% etc. Combining every single finisher we have is going to cause lots of confusion.

    EDIT:
    Oh come on, who removed my awesome Hipster Invoker image?
    Last edited by Bovan; 2012-12-06 at 03:04 PM.

  7. #7
    i like when plenty of guys come up with new ideas of how to fix or what imporvements to bring to the rogue class since we are so low but i think i saw 2 days ago when GC was asked why none of the beta feedbacks were on live and he said they lisen to the feedback but they dont let the players make the changes for them. Once again i#m all up for new things how to get the game improved but i think u guys waste the time they haven;t took into consideration the beta feedback or their forums ideeas they wont even care about MMO forum (imo GC should get fired)

  8. #8
    I don't like most of these ideas. Some are creative though.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 08:17 PM ----------

    I guess I'll add-

    I do think a poison bomb ability would be pretty cool. I don't know what it would do, however.
    I think a raid cooldown would be nice. But I notice that every hybrid has a raid cooldown of some sort, and no pure does, so that's probably not a coincidence. Smokebomb could reduce the damage allies take for its duration, or there could be a long cooldown move that reduces all damage done by some percentage (aka a boss debuff that works).

    In pvp, rogues need mobility. I think a baseline shadowstep would probably end up making the class more appealing, as shadowstep is actually pleasing and easy to understand. A baseline prep would make ME happiest, however.

  9. #9
    Personally, I would like to see Rogues get a raid DPS CD akin to Stormlash or Skull Banner. We could even just rip it right from Stormlash:

    Poisoned Blades:
    Instant
    5m cooldown
    Poison the weapons of allies within 30 yards. Allies' spells and attacks deal additional Poison damage to targets. Lasts 10 sec.

    The animation could look like FoK with a bunch of poison spewing out as well and persist for the duration of the effect while you still have full control of your character. Everyone's hands could glow green and drip too.

  10. #10
    I dunno, hunters and mages have lust which is a raid cooldown (granted not defensive). Locks have healthstones which I'd say count as a defensive raid cooldown.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post

    Prey on the Weak / Serrated Blades / Paralytic Poison

    -Serrated Blades Reduces Auto-attack and Poison damage dealt by 90% , Damage dealt by Eviscerate reduced by 50%. Strike damage increased by 125% (obviously would need testing on exact percent increases) Rupture damage increased by 50%

    Ok i bit the bullet and stopped lurking just to comment on this, could you explain if its a cooldown or a passive first this is kind of vague but i am now going to assume its a passive. WHY WOULD ANYONE WANT TO DO THIS?

    I know people are saying rogues have too much passive damage but this is kind of going the wrong way with it (i know its a talent but still) reducing poisons would make it completeley unwanted for assassination for one. Reducing AA damage would make it unwanted for combat. Reducing eviscerate makes it unwanted for subtlety.

    Now what does it increase? Rupture damage wich is currently not really something rogues use for its damage (maybe sub but not directly) and strike damage.

    What is strike damage? is it sinister strike perhaps. If so then it would translate to dispatch and hemmorhage for the other specs, wich roughly translates to maybe good for combat in the end (maybe) and completeley breaking for sub and assassination.
    For sub it would make it hemmorhage>backstab wich wasnt the intent of blizz, and for assassination it would mean that it would be completeley neuter the spec (considering poison is reduced already).

    I have no clue where your head was when thinking this up but it's (not to be offensive) a good thing blizzard only looks at these kinds of things as suggestion in stead of actual ideas

  12. #12
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    I hate passive damage. I think all damage anyone does should be activated, if the numbers were tuned correctly, shifting damage to rupture and burst from strikes[backstab/ambush] rather than autoattacks would greatly benefit PvP.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post
    Energetic Recovery reworked, energy regeneration on rupture ticks rather than slice and dice.
    please no, don't let finishers on the enemy still be mandatory for our dmg, it sucks already enough as is. selfbuffs, okay, but not finishers on the enemy.

    How about:

    Battle Preparation:
    -Cost: 30 energy
    -range: 40y
    -deals no damage, does not break stealth, grants one combo point on the target.


    That's what assassins and combat swashbucklers actually do... watching the enemy and preparing their fight.
    This is actually a fun and interactive variant of the old sub talent.
    Last edited by Bluegirl91; 2012-12-05 at 01:14 AM.

  14. #14
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong with rolling that into a dot we have to use anyway for sanguinary vein or venomous wounds and shifting it away from the passive damage of s&d to give rogues a solid damage when they're off target.

    My design would greatly reduce passive damage, put sustained damage in rupture uptime, and burst into CP generators. What don't you like about that?

  15. #15
    I haven't played my rogue properly in MoP yet, but I'd say the biggest problem with your whole idea of removing passive damage would be a overhaul of assassination and combat and leaving Sub more or less the same, if you strongly dislike passive dmg the right spec for you is Sub. And whereas your ideas are interesting they are entirely unrealistic, imagine introducing that amount of new abilities into PvP, mission impossible balance wise.

  16. #16
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    Sub has too much passive damage as well, autoattacks and poisons are a huge portion of damage, and backstab damage is less than it was at 85 because they rolled damage into eviscerate.

    Mandatory Sub Buffs/Debuffs:

    -Rupture/Garrote [Sanguinary Vein]
    -Slice and Dice [Energetic Recovery]
    -Recuperate [3% hp3s is better than 0%]
    -Feint [30% damage reduction necessary, yet excruciating] I guess you could take Cheat Death, but it fails all the time, and is considerably less mitigation.
    -Kidney Shot [Obvious]
    Last edited by Speaknoevil; 2012-12-05 at 07:36 AM.

  17. #17
    Ok, I guess that since you bring up "shitty" survival and kidney we are talking a bit of pvp here, and well, then it's just odd to bring in passive dmg at all, almost all classes have "passive" dmg, warlocks dotting / casting generic build up spell, shamans LBing, Warriors building stacks / rage, if anything we can consider ourselves lucky because our buildup is the most interesting of the different buildups and not as much dependant on random procs. It's your dance that murders in PvP or your KS and AR+SB (Ass I cannot defend in PvP as that is truly autoattacking for winning). As far as PvE goes all specs have their ups and downs, Sub was so good mid till end of cata with passive dmg being the least of your dmg outputs. Yes our passive dmg counts for a lot, but is it really more than the "passive" dmg of other classes, I wonder who would reach the most dps, a mage casting frostbolt on a dummy or a rogue simply autoattacking.

  18. #18
    The Lightbringer Speaknoevil's Avatar
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    My suggestion is to reduce passive damage, and move it to abilities, so I don't know why you said this:

    then it's just odd to bring in passive dmg at all,
    Casting in PvP takes more finesse than autoattacking while on target, having classes that do both I don't feel they are comparable.

  19. #19
    you are a melee your autoattack will be at least 10% of your damage, its something that if its changed for rogues to be more active would make them either worse off than the other melee or better if the way i strain my fingers during any fighting is an indication.

    I would suggest not trying to remove passive damage as it is now because its just the way things work.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Speaknoevil View Post

    Casting in PvP takes more finesse than autoattacking while on target, having classes that do both I don't feel they are comparable.
    Does it though? If you're sitting on a caster dps they very rarely try to hardcast, they stick to their instants, not much finesse over that, if you're not sitting on the caster, he just gets to hardcast on you, don't really see much finesse in that (yeah you can LoS the hardcast, but then you will relieve the pressure on the target you were attacking). The reason I bring this up is that you bring up both offensive and defensive abilities you want rolling, suggesting that you want the freedom to be both insanely offensive and defensive at the same time (a perk I don't think any class enjoys).
    So if we move the idea of having most of our damage coming from special attacks we suddenly have a melee class that doesn't even need to sit on a target to keep it pressured anymore, since you can empty your energy bar and then you actually don't have to do anything till your energy bar is full again without losing a smidge of dps, you be LoSing their caster trying to peel you, it would not only be very very powerful, but actually be dumbing the class down as well, now you just blow your load quickly, and then you can just ignore everything until your energy is back.
    Taking away our passive dmg would be like taking Shadow bolt from warlocks and just move all its properties to fel flame to make up for it, it just takes away the restriction the class has for it's build up. All of this is ofc with the consideration that you do not want a final nerf of the damage output, if you'd be ok with dealing 20-30% less dmg overall then I guess it would be possible to move all dmg to active abilities (though I stand with my former statement of this simply dumbing down the class).
    As to all of the new abilities you listed, the whole combining finishers would just be one enormous clusterf***, imagine facing a warrior, but that warrior now has 10 extra abilities at his disposal, this game is getting flooded with abilities as it is, in order to pvp you'd have to have a encyclopedia next to you with a 10 page description of every classes abilities.
    In the end, I'd actually like to ask you, how would you like to change the whole build up phase? Because IMO we currently have a nice system with some buildup time for all classes (rogues actually being the ones who can build up the fastest) resulting in some sort of burst such as dance.

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