1. #1

    Cool 5.1 pvp nerfs discussion (video included)

    Hey all.

    So i feel one of the nerfs were justified in terms of resto, as follows;
    Ancestral Swiftness +50% cooldown

    However this has had a direct effect on Elemental and Enhance aswell, when they really didnt need it (they are below average in pvp)
    I feel this is down to the way the new talent tree's are made. Because the trees consist of core abilities, whenever they nerf one of those abilities due to a SPEC being overpowered, then the other 2 specs also suffer.

    I think this is a very bad system in the long run because;
    A) Eventually all classes will feel as though their spec is being penalized for another being OP/Underpowerd
    B) You cant balance pvp around a class, only around a spec (especially when it comes to hybrids)

    I would like to see a system where things SUCH AS cooldowns are based on your SPEC but the core talent tree remains the same, i think this would help fine tune the balance in pvp.
    Its going to suck to have to suffer nerfs on X spell because of X spec when the spell fitted fine with your spec, the same applies for when they buff the core talent too, it might help an underpowered spec but might also make another spec ridiculously powerful.

    Another issue i have is the huge overnerf of the totem system, something thats worked perfectly for every expansion since vanilla untill now. Being blanketed should not stop us planting totems, a change i would propose is this;

    If you are locked out casting a nature spell (e.g successfully pummeled) then you should not be able to cast totems for the duration of the lockout.

    Blanketing a target is brainless and takes no skill or pre emptive though as to what that class is going to cast, unless applied in a partner killing/saving scenario.
    The current way they are is going to encourage more people to blanket just so they cant tremor in fear, and so they cant ground/earthgrab/stone bulwark to peel or releive pressure, which is a very poor game design, shamans are dependent on totem rotations to make up for defensive cooldowns they lack (especially for elemental, who have a grand total of none, and no, thunderstorm is not a defensive cooldown with the current amount of gap closers in the game). this change kills the only defensive cooldowns shamans have, Palas can bubble, priests can pain suppression, druids can barkskin AND vanish, shaman seems to be left with nothing.

    I'd really like to see astral shift as a passive ability that procs while stunned/feared/silenced like in wotlk but maybe lower the damage reduction to 30% or 20%.

    I made a short video discussing the changes if anyones interested, i know the mmo shaman community has enjoyed them in the past

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6dKX...U&feature=plcp

    How does everyone else feel?

    TL;DR I personally feel like we got massively shafted and enhance and elemental are suffering because of resto being op and blizzards talent system not accomodating spec balance properly.

    I also feel that elemental now has no major defensive cooldowns which is a huge issue which i think should be adressed immediately as currently i cant think of another spec of any class that this applies for.
    Last edited by Octohoof; 2012-11-30 at 04:26 PM.

  2. #2
    There are basically two viable options concerning totems
    1.) Have them stay as they were: with drawbacks such as immobility/limited range, targetability/destrucability(5hp) and elemental brackets (earth/water/wind/fire totems), BUT usable while silenced
    OR
    2.) Have them not usable while silenced, but not destroyable, and elemental brackets removed

    Everything else is totems being weak crap in every aspect. I critisized their many drawbacks compared to other classes' utility cooldowns before, but now it is even worse than back then.

    edit: It's not only our talent system though. Undoubtedly it is a part of the problem though.
    As I said in another thread: The key aspect is spec specific changes.
    Blizz has removed the old talent system, and aside from our new, pretty much optional ones now we get many former talents now through leveling as abilities (SR, TS, SLT, EQ, FrSp, SS, LL, Earth Shield and so on). What stops them from adding buffs/nerfs there?
    Or stuff you get upon taking up a spec for example.

    Upon taking resto, you dont get access to several utility spells enh/ele get, this way resto can be kept in line while bringing up enh/ele. Especially stuff like better kiting for ele and gap closing for enh need to be added as base abilities without making resto even more op. This way talents can remain optional and wont feel forced, like Frozen Power, Unleash Fury etc.
    Last edited by Omanley; 2012-11-28 at 09:44 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  3. #3
    Yeah indeed, someone suggested something interesting on my youtube video,
    Give elemental shamanistic rage as a defensive CD since its usable while stunned.

    I still think the ultimate solution for the totems is to only stop you casting them if you are locked out of a spell/interupted succesfully, they are a core mechanic and defensive CD and i feel like i have nothing without them being available while silenced.

    I guess the coming weeks will tell if the changes are as bad as they sound though.

    and i agree with spec specific changes, since the new talent tree system doesnt allow for that, baseline spec talents need to be adjusted instead to fine tune the balance in pvp, this applies to all hybrids i asssume.

  4. #4
    Herald of the Titans Seriss's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Octohoof View Post
    I still think the ultimate solution for the totems is to only stop you casting them if you are locked out of a spell/interupted succesfully, they are a core mechanic and defensive CD and i feel like i have nothing without them being available while silenced.

    I guess the coming weeks will tell if the changes are as bad as they sound though.
    I wanted to do my daily bg today... Now, while I may not be a pro-pvp-player, I always had fun. Not so today. From all directions, I was targeted by painfully long blanket silences and killed within mere seconds. Astral Shift didn't even make much of a difference. I felt so awfully defenceless, it was depressing. Any braindead dps that has the ability to silence me for some 5 seconds or more can now make me go from 100% to 0%. I feel like I should have saved myself the trouble of farming blue pvp gear because it doesn't seem to make a difference anymore. Funny thing is that, at the same time of day just a day ago, I'd have said that I feel every piece of pvp gear that I add to my equipment...

    I don't know... Have things been changed across all classes so badly, have I lost my feeble pvp skills entirely now, or was I just unfortunate enough to meet too many rogues, mages and dks that were all picking me as their first target today?

    A part of me is glad that I don't have the time to do any RBG anyway this season, because I seriously can't imagine that anyone would bring a shaman of any spec. I'll certainly not speak up if someone's looking for a healer for low-rated rBGs because right now, I feel utterly useless. Cannon-fodder. I just count myself lucky that I'm not on a pvp server anymore now.

    The pvp-pros may point and laugh at me now. I don't care. I just want to do some random BGs with a friend and farm achievements and honor kills... and it just wasn't any fun today when we wanted to relax after raid *unhappy hoofie*

  5. #5
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    Play a DK with a Shaman partner and can't really understand the Shaman changes at all.

    Should Shaman be penalized for being locked out? Absolutely! Should they be penalized for being blanket silenced? No.

    When I saw these changes I just sort of face palmed. Imagine the whining if blanket silences prevented Mages/Paladins from using their immunities? In my opinion all totems should be tied to the nature school. If you get interrupted, much like a Mage/Paladin you're defensive CDs are shot. If you get silenced you can't cast spells (so it's still useful), but you can still use your totems (block/bubble). I think that's the fairest way to do it while bringing Shamans down a little.

  6. #6
    I agree Tojara, blanketing is brainless and is going to make shamans VERY easy targets, especially ele who have 0 defensive cooldowns which sucks.

    I made a post on the battle net forum would appreciate if people bumped it

    http://eu.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/5967129049#1

  7. #7
    Personally i fail to see why Elemental and Enhance Totems got too strong since MoP.

    As Elemental / Enhance you got 4 new totems with MoP:

    Healing Stream
    Healing Tide (talented only)
    Windwalk (talented only)
    Capacitator

    I can understand that Healing Tide and partially healing stream got nerfed since they tick for a decent amount as Resto, but those other 2?

    Any other really useful Totem in PvP can be dropped while silenced since Wotlk and entire Cata.

    In my view, any specialization / talented / healing totem should be affected by this nerf, baseline totems not.

    Mostly because those Baseline totems were totally unaffected by MoP Changes.

    They changed this during Wotlk, with Earthbind / Grounding / Tremor already ingame, now 2 expansions later with no changes to these totems except Earthbind nerf and Tremor rework they are suddenly too strong now? I don't get this and Capacitator is not that strong because you can't Tp this Totem while silenced.
    Last edited by Kralljin; 2012-11-30 at 08:01 PM.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  8. #8
    Elemental Lord Teriz's Avatar
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    I think its time for the Shaman class to just get a massive overhaul. We're still operating under the same basic structure as WotLk in all three specs. Every other caster got a pretty significant structural overhaul, and Shaman needs the same thing to happen for them.

  9. #9
    Heh, when wasn't it time for one? For as long as I can remember, shaman have never gotten ANY kind of overhaul.
    The closest we got was buff totems turned into spells, and the old "call of the x" spells.

    Shaman totems went from unchanged for 8 years to ruined in MoP, and they are our most iconic abilities!
    I had never asked for them to be op. All I ever hoped for would be them being balanced (providing a huge boon for huge disadvantages, or at least homogenisized and equal to others' abilities.

    I know I am asking for the usual "different classes are different" comment, but shamans still have the low quality stuff of just about anything
    non-totem utility cooldowns > totems
    insta gap closer or freedom/sprint combos > enh mobility
    other silences/CC > hex
    other stuns > CPT
    divided dmg/utility > shared shock cooldowns/imbues-unleashes
    dispell/spell steal > purge
    banish > bind elemental
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    dispell/spell steal > purge
    Purge Glyph disagrees.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Teriz View Post
    I think its time for the Shaman class to just get a massive overhaul. We're still operating under the same basic structure as WotLk in all three specs. Every other caster got a pretty significant structural overhaul, and Shaman needs the same thing to happen for them.
    Sadly I think you're right. They are going to have to overhaul Shaman to even attempt to balance the 3 specs for PvP. The specs share to much to make adjustments to buff or nerf 1 spec.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Purge Glyph disagrees.
    Yeah, IFyou use it. Mage/Priest dont have to glyph. Same with CPT, if you use two glyphs and a talent it is decent. But again, only if.
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Omanley View Post
    Yeah, IFyou use it. Mage/Priest dont have to glyph. Same with CPT, if you use two glyphs and a talent it is decent. But again, only if.
    Personally, an increased mana cost and a Glyph Slot is damn worth if you consider that it doubles the effect.
    Too often, we are mistaken for druidic types. perhaps that's true for some shaman, but do not let yourself be plagued by the ignorant belief that we are always peaceful.
    Nothing about what I do is harmonious. I command the elements to my will. There is nothing offered in return. I would have it no other way.


    Never assume an ogre's stupid, that's when they'll get you.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Personally, an increased mana cost and a Glyph Slot is damn worth if you consider that it doubles the effect.
    Just checked the current versions of priest/mage offensive dispells and noticed that they're not as strong as they used to be, so you're correct .
    Quote Originally Posted by Angoth
    I'm sorry that Blizzard won't just gift wrap awesome in a cup and let you drink your fill.

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