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  1. #1

    [Fire] Full Crit gems for yellow?

    Alright im horrible at math but I was just told by a mage that i should be using Full crit gems for fire in yellow sockets?

    I was under the impression we want the intellect + crit orange gems, but are the yellow 320 crit ones better overall, outweighing the 80 int? I tried to do a sim so i wouldn't have to ask you guys but i really have no clue what i am doing for sims nor do i know how to make it work

    Any insight would be greatly appreciated!

  2. #2
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Intellect is always the priority stat for mages, you should never gem for any pure PvE secondary state unless you are absolutely starved for hit.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
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    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  3. #3
    i say screw it do what you want wont make a huge difference stop worrying about optimization since your not in a top guild. just focus on your rotation and your movement planing. That is what will what make you a better player the gems and reforging are just math. So just focus on skill practice your rotation into the ground and when you get that down pick a different spec and repeat. If there is something that needs done in raid always offer to do it and then get the job done. if you have to read strategies and draw mock ups of what your need to do then do it. Just always push your limits man you want to be the guy that everyone says dam how dose he do that. Don't wate for some one to tell you it needs done know it needs done and do it.

  4. #4
    The Insane Didactic's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Heartfrost View Post
    i say screw it do what you want wont make a huge difference stop worrying about optimization since your not in a top guild. just focus on your rotation and your movement planing. That is what will what make you a better player the gems and reforging are just math. So just focus on skill practice your rotation into the ground and when you get that down pick a different spec and repeat. If there is something that needs done in raid always offer to do it and then get the job done. if you have to read strategies and draw mock ups of what your need to do then do it. Just always push your limits man you want to be the guy that everyone says dam how dose he do that. Don't wate for some one to tell you it needs done know it needs done and do it.
    If you have two people of equal skill, the one that gems correctly will pull higher dps.

    Honestly, I'm not telling him to play for eight hours every night.
    Right, as the world goes, is only in question between equals in power, while the strong do what they can and the weak suffer what they must.
    - Thucydides

    There is a modern myth that people have always tended towards democracy, constitutions, electoral rights; but in truth, love of freedom has never been the predominant note of popular politics. At most times, popular demand has been for a strong government.
    - Eugen Weber

  5. #5
    The thing is, int is worth a lot more than crit for fire, but not double crit. Since secondaries are double stat on gems now, crit gems would be worth more.

  6. #6
    Simply put, yes after you get certain ammount of int, 320 crit outweights 160 int. But stacking on crit also makes your int stronger, and so on.. but after a certain point you just wont gem pure int anymore, you will still though gem int and crit on reds, crit on yellow and either hit + crit on blue or pure crit depending on socketing bonuses and your current hit from gear.

    What Didactic is trying to point is that before you allmost never gemmed pure 2nd stat before even if they had better stat weight(hit), but that was cause Hit rating has a hard cap, you simply gain nothing after a certain point, so its better to reforge hit from stats like crit, haste and mastery to achieve that cap. But with crit this is not the case, Crit for fire mages has no reachable cap, so in short you get as much of it as you can(or thats how its looking like atm). So you reforge hit/exp to 15%, reforge crit after that, gem crit, find items with crit.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Hoey View Post
    The thing is, int is worth a lot more than crit for fire, but not double crit. Since secondaries are double stat on gems now, crit gems would be worth more.
    This.

    Stats Values
    Intellect 100
    Hit Rating 79
    Spell Power 75
    Critical Strike Rating 65
    Haste Rating 55
    Mastery Rating 46

    Gems Stats Multiplier Score
    Rigid River's Heart 320 Hit 79 25280
    Piercing Wild Jade 160 Crit | 160 Hit 65 | 79 23040
    Smooth Sun's Radiance 320 Crit 65 20800
    Veiled Imperial Amethyst 80 Int | 160 Hit 100 | 79 20640
    Potent Vermilion Onyx 80 Int | 160 Crit 100 | 65 18400
    Brilliant Primordial Ruby 160 Int 100 16000

    1. Use the same method to calculate the score of socket bonus (using 0 if inactive)
    2. Add the result to your gem score
    3. ???
    4. Profit

  8. #8
    I go for crit, because as a fire mage you need some serious amount of crit to get things going. At the moment imho you can't have enough crit. Currently I'm at about 15% crit unbuffed. That is ok, but it could be a little bit more

  9. #9
    Even if math says something else you need a certain amount of crit to get things going as a firemage. Playing with 15-20% Crit is a pain in the ass because you won't get crits/hot streaks when you need them. After i was going full crit the spec played a loot smoother and in the end it was not only a lot more fun, but i was doing more DPS because i could use hot streaks and combustion quite predictable together with other CDs/procs.... i would try to never go below 25% Crit selfbuffed. Maybe even aim for 30% and then go int.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Veranus View Post
    This.

    Stats Values
    Intellect 100
    Hit Rating 79
    Spell Power 75
    Critical Strike Rating 65
    Haste Rating 55
    Mastery Rating 46
    Almost what this guy says, but use an external third party resource, such as SimulationCraft, to work out your current personal stat weights. The importance of each stat varies with how much of them all you currently have, so you will need to work them out for your current gear set up.

    If those calculations then show that 320 crit scores higher than 160 int then you'd want the crit. Gem a gem, and recheck your stat weights. Repeat for ever.

  11. #11
    High Overlord Jimm3's Avatar
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    put your char in simcraft and get the stat weights for your CURRENT gear(this changes as you change gear)

    If you have for example: int= 3,8
    crit = 1,65
    then for the gems
    3,5x160=560
    and 1,9x320=608

    So 320 crit> 160 int in this case.
    Then do the same math for mixed gems and see what you get.

    When you get better gear this ratio might change giving more benefit for pure int gemming.

    But this is really min/maxing here so unless you re in a progress guild dont bother much with this.
    Last edited by Jimm3; 2012-10-12 at 01:38 PM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnnyQuest View Post
    Almost what this guy says, but use an external third party resource, such as SimulationCraft, to work out your current personal stat weights. The importance of each stat varies with how much of them all you currently have, so you will need to work them out for your current gear set up.
    I was going to say this, but since Johnny already covered it, I'm just going to reinforce it. SimCraft is an incredible tool, everyone that plays WoW should run it on their character at least occasionally. You'll almost certainly learn something, and it's quite possibly you'll learn something important. Seeing DPCT values really drives home why your priority is what it is and how important it is.

  13. #13
    Thanks so much for the help guys...Yes i have tried Simcraft, gotten to see my potential dps, though i am not sure how to change the gems in it to see which ones would net more dps? Or gear swaps? Is there a guide anywhere that you guys can think of on how to properly use Simcraft? im using version 505-2

    And here is my armory if any of you would like to see it, or if it helps! http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte.../Tato/advanced

    Thanks so much for your time!

  14. #14
    High Overlord Jimm3's Avatar
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    Like i said in a previous post just multiply the value of your crit and int stats with your gems values and see whats the biggest number...it's not advanced math, just a couple of multiplications to see what gives more DPS gain

  15. #15
    Field Marshal
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    I've got simc-505-2. Can someone please at least direct me to where I can get it to evaluate the stat weight on my gear.

    Thanks.

  16. #16
    Moderator Wilderness's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by NeerDeth View Post
    I've got simc-505-2. Can someone please at least direct me to where I can get it to evaluate the stat weight on my gear.

    Thanks.
    I'm at work so I can't pull up SimC right now - but basically when you go into the options, I believe its the same place where you'll find the buffs that you can check off or on depending on what comp you have, there will be a tab that you can select to have it calculate stat weights when it sims for whatever stats you check.
    Raids & Dungeons Mod | <Despotism> 14/14H (10-man); 14/14H (25-man); 2 Days/Week US-Greymane <> Recruiting for Mythic

  17. #17
    Almost everywhere I've looked yellow slots = 80 int / 160 crit orange gem

  18. #18
    Atm For FIRE, Crit is valued way more than Int WHEN DOUBLED, i.e. the stats on secondary gems with the gear currently available. I'd suggest gemming Potent(80int/160crit) in red sockets, Piercing(160 crit,160 hit) in Blue(though only if you don't need hit that much, otherwise gem pure hit (Rigid 320 Hit), and Smooth(320 Crit) in Yellow. "I've tested it on every boss in normal Vaults, as well as Int and I am satisfied with the results." 320 Crit > 160 Int.

    Also a side note, being in a top guild or not, means nothing unless you're getting paid to do it lol. Top guilds raid all week long, all day long lol. This is about helping you optimize your performance, to better yourself. To see that light blue at the top of meters for damage done and dps, to be at the bottom of damage taken is entirely up to you. But, if you want to make the other mages in your raid look up to you, to use you as an example of excellence in their decision making, the first step is to apply yourself. Trial and error, don't take any advice but your own, ABC's always be casting. If you don't believe 320 crit is better than 160 int, don't take my word for it, run Sim Craft. Get to work on dummies, spend the gold change your gear, fiddle with reforges til it's tweaked just right. Do what you have to do to enjoy the game you pay for imho. I personally, hate not being one of the best in my raid, and I always try everything to be top if not top 3 and rank every fight. If I don't, there is room for improvement, always. Just a thought
    Last edited by KoolKidKaos; 2012-10-16 at 08:11 PM.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by KoolKidKaos View Post
    Atm For FIRE, Crit is valued way more than Int WHEN DOUBLED, i.e. the stats on secondary gems with the gear currently available. I'd suggest gemming Potent(80int/160crit) in red sockets, Radiant(160 crit,160 hit) in Blue(though only if you don't need hit that much, otherwise gem pure hit (Rigid 320 Hit), and Smooth(320 Crit) in Yellow. "I've tested it on every boss in normal Vaults, as well as Int and I am satisfied with the results." 320 Crit > 160 Int.
    Really comes down to what others have said though.. It depends on your current gear and stat weights...
    I've only picked up 6 epics (which is reasonable if not slightly above average for a normal raider) and my weights come out to (normalized):
    100 int
    62 hit
    50 crit
    37 haste
    34 mastery

    I FULLY Agree that you MUST get socket bonuses nearly always.. and crit is at least equal to int (due to crit's value being doubled on gear).. But I can't agree with numbers I've seen yet that Crit is "WAY" better for fire.. But I'm no simcraft expert.. I don't even know how to test for higher values of crit (to simulate regemming crit heavy) and what not without running a 3rd party site to mangle my gear around >.>

    And a quick run of Simcraft on you, Chaos-Skullcrusher, I'm seeing roughly the same story I'm saying:
    100 Int
    66 Hit
    50 Crit
    46 Haste
    35 Mastery

    Perhaps the heavy crit you put in brought the weight relative to int down.. again. I'm no theorycraft expert :-)

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Kewi View Post
    Really comes down to what others have said though.. It depends on your current gear and stat weights...
    I've only picked up 6 epics (which is reasonable if not slightly above average for a normal raider) and my weights come out to (normalized):
    100 int
    62 hit
    50 crit
    37 haste


    34 mastery

    I FULLY Agree that you MUST get socket bonuses nearly always.. and crit is at least equal to int (due to crit's value being doubled on gear).. But I can't agree with numbers I've seen yet that Crit is "WAY" better for fire.. But I'm no simcraft expert.. I don't even know how to test for higher values of crit (to simulate regemming crit heavy) and what not without running a 3rd party site to mangle my gear around >.>

    And a quick run of Simcraft on you, Chaos-Skullcrusher, I'm seeing roughly the same story I'm saying:
    100 Int
    66 Hit
    50 Crit
    46 Haste
    35 Mastery

    Perhaps the heavy crit you put in brought the weight relative to int down.. again. I'm no theorycraft expert :-)
    I also took in to account certain fights, Light movement and 10000 In. over 450 seconds. Since I've gotten a few upgrades Int is almost pulling ahead, I also want to take back what I said about Potent Cut, Crafty is far superior, 160 Exp and 160 crit is really good, I got a lot more crit out of my reforging.

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