Explain this

**Biruta** · 2012-12-05, 12:23 PM

Originally Posted by Dumaw

Warlocks got nerfed on their main damage spells

What about frost mages, Blizzard´s favorite creation?

They clearly don´t want any other caster to compete with mages, pvp wise

Damn the warlock who stole the GC's girlfriend

**Jawless Jones** · 2012-12-05, 12:30 PM

avatar nerf didnt break warriors in arena....

some high rank warriors didnt even use avatar back before the nerf, probably due to the fact that the freedom it granted could be given by other classes, other than that i have no idea i still think its an amazing spell even with the nerf

Warrior charges
mage blinks
warrior heroic leaps
mage novas
warrior spell reflect
mage does nothing for fear of reflecting
warrior charges (assuming you have juggernaut)
mage iceblocks
warrior breaks it

i can go on and on, also none of that was counting damage being dealt or potential teammates so it only gets better for the warrior due to their high damage and possible dispells done by a healer (note that nothing a warrior does can be dispelled)

**Lulbalance** · 2012-12-05, 05:47 PM

Originally Posted by Sikend

I want to see someone defend Frost mages...warriors got nerfed to where we cant be viable in arena. but the mobility of mages dmg and control is so out of whack

i wanna live where you live, cause it sounds better than real life.

**Dizzie03** · 2012-12-05, 07:03 PM

Try playing Rogue...

**heath1056** · 2012-12-05, 07:21 PM

Avatar is far from being not viable in arena. Although I will agree with you, frost mage is the best spec right now. But there always has to be a best spec. Tbh, I don't see any of the top players complaining about OP classes or anything like that when watching their streams. I think any class can usually still be outplayed.

**Mihalik** · 2012-12-05, 07:27 PM

Originally Posted by Deoxysprime

As a warrior main - when warriors are competitive against mages at equal skill levels something is wrong.

Mages are supposed to kite warriors and disable them to hell and back. Is it frustrating? Hell yes. Does it make sense? Yeah, of course it does. Warriors enjoy high mobility, respectable survivability, and insane burst damage. Someone has to be able to prevent that. Mages are supposed to counter warriors hard.

Warriors do well against Rogues, Death Knights, Priests, and Warlocks on their own. Warriors perform moderately against Shamans, Monks, Hunters, and Paladins with a little support. In the past, Warriors had difficulty with uptime on Mage teams even with substantial help. When that suddenly changes and Warriors keep their strengths over other classes that's a problem. Gag Order and Avatar were overkill in addition to general cooldown stacking, Warriors didn't need those tools in the past to be viable. Maybe at some point we'll see a Warrior blanket silence again, but it's certainly not necessary. Warriors should still be a decent pick this season because of their burst.

Given equal skill - a Mage should almost always beat a Warrior.

Edit: I'm not going to defend Frost Mages in other scenarios. I don't have a lot of PvP experience this season and can only provide anecdotes of past experience and general game design philosophy.

Whole LOAD of bollocks pouring from everywhere...

The hard counter arguement is null and void. May I ask if a Mage is a Warrior's hard counter...who is the hard counter of a Mage? Because right now I can't think of one.

No class should expect to go like- oh class X free kill! That is neither, fair or balanced. It also pours over to group pvp setting. If X ALWAYS counter Y but no viceversa then everytime a team has an X the team with a Y has automatically lost. En essence leading to seeing that top teams always having the exact seem identical composition. The typical RMPvsRMPvsRMPvsRMP. That is just plain stupid and boring, not to mention frustrating to anyone playing anything else.

**Booniehat** · 2012-12-05, 07:33 PM

Originally Posted by Myci

T

Can we please stop posting things along the lines of "LOL SUCK IT WARRIORS" /diehard mage defenders/ another 60 people saying "warriors arent viable? LOL" ( missing any point of a possible discussion) and actually have a discussion about the state of warriors and mages in pvp? The OPs point was to ask why mages havnt gotten nerfed when warriors, hunters, locks, and hybrids all have. Just get past the " warriors not being viable" and actually post constructively...

Well in all fairness

A) Warriors are easily the top two (if not THE best) melee currently. SO that "unviable" thing from the OP is just... bad. bad bad bad. Try playing a WW monk or ele Shaman before talking "unviable".

B) No one here will argue against mages need a nerf. But it's milk that has been spilt for like the past 3 years. Crying about it is soooo 2010. :P

C) I agree balance doesn't work in turns. Class A is good in s10, therefore does not deserve to be good in S12 - Stupid butthead logic that should be eradicated. We should always strive towards balance currently, not balance "in turns".

**Ryan Cailan Ebonheart** · 2012-12-05, 07:59 PM

Originally Posted by Mihalik

Whole LOAD of bollocks pouring from everywhere...

The hard counter arguement is null and void. May I ask if a Mage is a Warrior's hard counter...who is the hard counter of a Mage?

Hunter, Warlock, Shadow Priest, Good Death Knight, Enhancement Shaman.

Those all work.

**Mihalik** · 2012-12-06, 12:19 AM

Originally Posted by Ryan Cailan Ebonheart

Hunter, Warlock, Shadow Priest, Good Death Knight, Enhancement Shaman.

Those all work.

I don't think you are very clear on the meaning of a hard counter. A mage with his toolkit stands a fair and mostly equal change against all of the above (maybe hunter could be somewhat a bitch, but still not a hard counter). All of the above classes are fairly good against mages...but they don't have any insurmountable advantage over a mage that would give them a 100% kill chance on equal skill level.

**Ryan Cailan Ebonheart** · 2012-12-06, 12:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mihalik

I don't think you are very clear on the meaning of a hard counter. A mage with his toolkit stands a fair and mostly equal change against all of the above (maybe hunter could be somewhat a bitch, but still not a hard counter). All of the above classes are fairly good against mages...but they don't have any insurmountable advantage over a mage that would give them a 100% kill chance on equal skill level.

That's true. I guess Hunter is the only one we can agree on then.

**velnis** · 2012-12-06, 02:13 AM

Originally Posted by Mihalik

I don't think you are very clear on the meaning of a hard counter. A mage with his toolkit stands a fair and mostly equal change against all of the above (maybe hunter could be somewhat a bitch, but still not a hard counter). All of the above classes are fairly good against mages...but they don't have any insurmountable advantage over a mage that would give them a 100% kill chance on equal skill level.

The assertion that mages are not beatable is absurd. Without shields a mage is one of the quickest classes to die in the game, they are ridiculously squishy. In 3s, ferals and enhance shamans decimate mages; I play kitty cleave and we can usually kill the mage in one cc duration, there is absolutely no way a mage will ever, ever, cast. Its actually quite funny how fast a mage will die to an enhance/warrior team, the enhance purges all of his buffs and guarantees that the mage will never do anything meaningful. Heck, even death knights can do a ton of damage to mages in 3s, since icy touch spam will purge all buffs and touching the mage with anything will result in a ton of damage.

I suspect mages are just complained about because of the frustration factor - they are annoying 1on1. But in 3v3, they are not hard to shut down. It really is one of those things where 1500 low skilled players complain instead of trying to find solutions. They're just annoying to fight against, that's why people complain. But as I said, it is not hard to shut them down.....they die fast.

Edit: its also hilarious that a warrior is complaining. Warrior damage is still stupidly high, to say they're not viable in arenas is ridiculous.

**Asmodias** · 2012-12-06, 02:29 AM

Originally Posted by Myci

Can we please stop posting things along the lines of "LOL SUCK IT WARRIORS" /diehard mage defenders/ another 60 people saying "warriors arent viable? LOL" ( missing any point of a possible discussion) and actually have a discussion about the state of warriors and mages in pvp? The OPs point was to ask why mages havnt gotten nerfed when warriors, hunters, locks, and hybrids all have. Just get past the " warriors not being viable" and actually post constructively...

The problem is that the OP opened the door for this kind of discussion. He/She specifically asked for people to defend Frost Mages and that is what he/she got. While I agree that some of the posts here aren't "constructive", the OP is getting exactly what they asked for. The OP also went out on a limb and said that warriors are not viable (though it sounds like that is in comparison to a Frost Mage). So begging to find people to defend the Frost Mage and claiming that Warriors as a whole are no longer viable in Arena... What would you have expected. The OP's post wasn't constructive in the slightest. It was a rage of opinion. And when you boil down what the OP said... it was "Mages are OP, Warriors are not". That's it. No facts given from the OPs post, just a complaint. I appreciate your want for a constructive debate on this topic, but when a thread starts as poorly as this one did, you aren't going to get anything constructive. You should be pointing this at the OP instead of the mob that has surrounded this thread. The OP may have had the intention of making a constructive thread, but when you come off as just someone whining... you need to expect that the flames are going to be fanned right back at you.

**corebit** · 2012-12-06, 03:11 AM

Both mages and warriors are over the top and need to be brought down, or a whole lot of classes need to be brought up to their level. Either way works.

All top melee cleaves run with the indispensable warrior. All top wizard cleaves cannot do without the omnipresent mage. It's seriously damaging (and boring as well) to the arena scene if you expect these classes to get represented over and over and over.

Meanwhile all the other melees/casters are pushed to the sidelines because of these two classes ruining PVP right now.

**Sarac** · 2012-12-06, 03:14 AM

Originally Posted by Reith

Warriors are still really good, so I don't see why you're complaining.

While what you say is true, it's also true mages are also out of control.

I personally don't get how Blizz needs a month to nerf each the OP classes. They fix what has been reported for months, but it takes them ages to do so.

**Malzahar** · 2012-12-07, 12:47 PM

Originally Posted by Mihalik

Whole LOAD of bollocks pouring from everywhere...

The hard counter arguement is null and void. May I ask if a Mage is a Warrior's hard counter...who is the hard counter of a Mage? Because right now I can't think of one.

No class should expect to go like- oh class X free kill! That is neither, fair or balanced. It also pours over to group pvp setting. If X ALWAYS counter Y but no viceversa then everytime a team has an X the team with a Y has automatically lost. En essence leading to seeing that top teams always having the exact seem identical composition. The typical RMPvsRMPvsRMPvsRMP. That is just plain stupid and boring, not to mention frustrating to anyone playing anything else.

As a warlock whose played since BC, this post made me burst out laughing.

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