Thread: Hastefrost DW

Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst
1
2
3
LastLast
  1. #21
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    3,079
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    DW hastefrost is essentially identical to 2H hastefrost but prioritizing frost strike over obliterate except where you'll leave runes unused. Everybody took rime into account when working on masterfrost in the first place.
    I'm new to the DK DPS world so let me try to clarify the terminology that's being used, because it's a little ambiguous/confusing:

    Masterfrost is a rotation priority that DW Frost uses when choosing to follow a Mastery > all stat priority. (but Sinzaram's post suggests it's actually the same priority for DW stacking Haste... D:)

    Hastefrost is a stat priority that favors Haste > all.
    2H Frost is always Hastefrost and so the 2H Frost rotation priority can also be considered Hastefrost.
    DW Hastefrost is thus a DW Frost DK that follows a Haste stat priority and imitates the 2H Frost rotation priority.

    The difference between 2H and DW Hastefrost is strictly which ability has priority when spending Killing Machine, or faced with resource capping (FS vs. Oblit).

    Is that roughly correct?

    Your #1 is not competitive performance, you want to gear for mastery as DW. Your #2 is really not competitive-- are you really asking if it's OK to prioritize obliterate as DW? The answer is no.
    I was actually just trying to sort out the different questions the OP seemed to be asking, because I find the topic interesting and I'm trying to learn Frost DK myself right now. Again, the terminology is really ambiguous at first.

    But both of my questions resulted from statements made in the EJ guide which seems to play down the difference between Masterfrost and "2H-esque" cycles for DW. I find this interesting because everywhere else the sentiment seems to be that using the current 2H style as DW is a crime against nature.

    I'm still trying to understand the EJ guide's assertion, which again strikes me as strange in the context of everything else I'm being told:
    It is entirely possible to dual wield and not use the “masterfrost” priority and instead use a more 2H-esque priority by using most of your runes for Obliterate rather than Howling Blast. This is a slight DPS loss (between 1-2%) and favors more haste over mastery (Strength > Hit/Exp > Haste > Mastery > Crit).
    So is that describing what you're referring to as "DW Hastefrost"? If so, does that mean the 1-2% listed loss there is actually closer to 6.2%, based on the numbers you posted?
    Last edited by Lovestar; 2012-11-30 at 07:56 AM.

  2. #22
    The latest simcraft predicted 6.2%, yes. But keep in mind that the top spec (DW masterfrost) is a highly tuned priority using blood tap that is quite annoying to actually execute while also doing everything you need to do in a modern raid encounter. You need to make your own determination how to play, because you have the option to spec into a lot of micromanagement for relatively little gain if you don't make mistakes.

    When I sim for my own use, I remove all the killing machine references and don't spec plague leech or blood tap.

    Anyway, I got off topic a bit there. If you gear for haste as DW frost it's a relatively small DPS loss on single targets, but murders your AE/cleave. And AE/cleave is important too.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    but murders your AE/cleave. And AE/cleave is important too.
    This is another important factor that I forgot to mention.

    Aoe is one of the bigger reasons to bring dps dks to raids right now.

  4. #24
    Ok, so at most people's current gear levels haste will win out on a single target in a vacuum with no environment and encounter boosts available (periods of heavy haste, rp gained from ams, cleave, etc). In most cases mastery comes out on top when those are taken into account.
    Last edited by kaelleria; 2012-11-30 at 07:47 PM.

  5. #25
    For DW, yes. You really shouldn't gear for mastery as 2H.

    That said, I geared for mastery as 2H when starting out because I didn't have decent 1H weapons and was doing a ton of dailies and dungeons. But I did it with my eyes open; I knew it was significantly hurting my single-target performance.

  6. #26
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    3,079
    Why does Haste hurt your cleave so bad? Since it increases Rune regen, shouldn't it lead to more HBs overall?

    Or is it the way Haste and Mastery distribute their relative damage increases?

    For example, Haste also increases your KM proc rate and your autoattack damage, etc etc. But the only contribution Haste makes to AoE is the Rune regen boost, which is only a fraction of Haste's dev-balanced overall DPS contribution compared to Mastery's flat damage boost contributing fully to AoE/cleave. So Haste's dev-balanced DPS benefit is partially "split" into stuff that only matters against a single target, while Mastery's contribution makes no distinction.

    Is that the problem?

  7. #27
    That's part of the reason.

    A lot of the rest of it is that mastery increases the damage of howling blast more than haste increases how many of them we end up using, and that mastery also increases frost fever damage.

  8. #28
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    3,079
    Oh, that's a good point... I didn't even consider Frost Fever. I guess Mastery is also always equally effective — short burst AoE or prolonged — whereas Haste needs some time to actually provide its relative resource increase. If stuff dies before any Runes can recharge, then Haste didn't really do much. :p

  9. #29
    Let's clarify a few things.

    2H Frost prioritizes Obliterate; You want to use it as much as possible. 2H Frost loves Haste and can't get enough. Haste will always have a high value for 2H Frost. That's pretty cut and dry. So, we'll move on.

    DW Frost prioritizes Howling Blast over Obliterate. But, Obliterate is still used to consume Unholy Rune(s). DW Frost loves Mastery, but it also needs a certain level of Haste to fill the empty GCDs. So until you reach Heroic T14 levels, then you need to prioritize Haste slightly over Mastery. As you naturally gain more Haste, the value of Mastery rises.

    People are still trying to relate Cata terms with MoP and it can make things confusing. Nevertheless, DW Frost prioritizing Obliterate is no longer competitive gameplay.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    Let's clarify a few things.

    2H Frost prioritizes Obliterate; You want to use it as much as possible. 2H Frost loves Haste and can't get enough. Haste will always have a high value for 2H Frost. That's pretty cut and dry. So, we'll move on.

    DW Frost prioritizes Howling Blast over Obliterate. But, Obliterate is still used to consume Unholy Rune(s). DW Frost loves Mastery, but it also needs a certain level of Haste to fill the empty GCDs. So until you reach Heroic T14 levels, then you need to prioritize Haste slightly over Mastery. As you naturally gain more Haste, the value of Mastery rises.

    People are still trying to relate Cata terms with MoP and it can make things confusing. Nevertheless, DW Frost prioritizing Obliterate is no longer competitive gameplay.
    Clash puts it best here.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Clash1 View Post
    DW Frost loves Mastery, but it also needs a certain level of Haste to fill the empty GCDs. So until you reach Heroic T14 levels, then you need to prioritize Haste slightly over Mastery.
    That's interesting. I assumed you were wrong, went and simmed it, and you are indeed completely correct. Mastery doesn't beat haste at T14N gear levels. Of course that's just single-target damage. When you increase the number of targets to even two they're basically even at T14N. And when you consider movement and ranged damage, mastery easily wins out.

    I would still gear mastery with DW frost even in 463 gear, because it's not much worse on single-targets and it's dramatically better on AE.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I would still gear mastery with DW frost even in 463 gear, because it's not much worse on single-targets and it's dramatically better on AE.
    Mastery at low gear levels would be worth it with sufficient rp from ams anyway.

    Unfortunately I have no idea how much is sufficient.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Schizoide View Post
    I would still gear mastery with DW frost even in 463 gear, because it's not much worse on single-targets and it's dramatically better on AE.
    At a 488 ilvl (4 pieces of PvP gear), I'm still seeing slightly better results favoring Haste over Mastery with 2-3 targets. With that being said, I have plenty of Mastery on my gear. From my experience, the biggest rule of thumb while gearing up so far has been to just stay away from gear with Crit on it when possible.
    Last edited by The Clash; 2012-12-01 at 10:03 PM.

  14. #34
    The Lightbringer Lovestar's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    United States
    Posts
    3,079
    Ah, Crit.

    If only I could trade all the Crit on my gear to my Fury Warrior, and siphon all the Haste off their gear.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Sinzaram View Post
    If your using two 1hs, you spam frost strike, howling blasts and only obliterate when you have to.
    Can anyone explain this? The obliterate part.
    I had always found that fs-hb rotation odd and wrong, ever since cata...

  16. #36
    Mechagnome Italiandk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    Dô yöû even liƒt¿
    Posts
    671
    Quote Originally Posted by Alestia View Post
    Can anyone explain this? The obliterate part.
    I had always found that fs-hb rotation odd and wrong, ever since cata...
    RE -> 1 UH rune on CD
    BT -> both UH runes on CD

    To put UH runes on CD you DnD or OB when DnD is on CD.
    Death Knight -> Italiandk
    Shaman -> Cashrain
    Paladin -> Healyoutru
    Priest -> Ängel
    Monk -> Skadoosh
    Mage -> Icydeath

  17. #37
    For 2h, it's not so much that Haste hurts your cleave, but that to get Haste you generally are giving up Strength. As soon as you throw in 2-3 more targets besides the boss, Strength should creep back over that 1:.5 ratio over Haste, where you'll want to go back to gemming it.

    Though, to be honest, there aren't really that many fights where you will be cleaving stuff anyhow, at least not full time, besides maybe Wind Lord? And even then, add damage is not as important as the single target 600% damage phases on that fight.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by fangless View Post
    Though, to be honest, there aren't really that many fights where you will be cleaving stuff anyhow
    Nearly every boss in this raid tier has a situation where you will be able to hit more than one target with howling blast, and many of them last long enough to be a substantial damage increase.

    People aren't bringing dks to heroic sha of fear for our single target damage, they're bringing dks because we can aoe and do single target damage at the same time.

  19. #39
    Fights with significant cleave this tier -
    Stoneguards
    Feng
    Garajal
    Spirit Kings
    Will
    Garalon
    Wind Lord
    Empress
    Protectors
    Tsulong
    Sha

    Fights without significant cleave -
    Zorlock
    Bladelord
    Lei Shi

  20. #40
    Mechagnome Flalia4's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    California
    Posts
    510
    I feel a bit dumb to have to ask this but does masterfrost or dual wield have a different rotation then a haste stacking 2 hand frost?

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •