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  1. #621
    I am Murloc! Volitar's Avatar
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    If you enjoy the game play it and if you don't enjoy it anymore go play something else. I don't understand how this is a difficult concept for so many people on these boards.

  2. #622
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ferocity View Post
    I like how you wrote it. This is what I mean under "gear treadmill". Why the heck to grind millions of dailies, farm millions of lucky charms, if you will never be able to enjoy results of your work? By the time you will be amidst upgrading gear - it is to be sold to vendor due to new raid tier. So in the end you will have half-upgraded gear and zero gear for any offspec, as all VP is used for upgrading. By the time you will get that 0.000001% drop chance weapon (or any other wanted lottery drop), there will be other raid tier already. It's just rat races since t9, and in MoP they got new disgusting colors.

    More people are getting this clue already. There is nothing fun in rat races. "What are we fighting for?" Why spend so many efforts into something, which will be considered vendor trash in a month or less? Why farm lucky charms, if lottery is broken anyway? By the time you will be half geared from lottery, it will be another raid tier anyway.
    Exactly.

    I find my grind time better in leveling the guild; finding rares; doing some PvP; pacing rep grinds and leveling alts. Those activities will always be there to do, and no disappointment with seeing yet another tier release.

    I do like the gear upgrading they released, though. It's a step in the right direction of getting geared on your time schedule and not needing to feel so rushed (as it is a rush to get geared before the next tier is released, and because raid RNG totally sucks). Now can do the regular activities and when I feel like doing more I can, not feel compelled to do it now and feel burnt out by tier end.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  3. #623
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    You're pretty much agreeing with me.

    I'm always amazed, for example, when I see characters doing dungeons or raids with missing enchants or gems or major glyphs.
    i am agreeing with you and this is why the better players do not raid with the bad players as you mentioned before. Why give gear to someone when you know it isnt going to make a differnce? You are basically throwing away the time and effort it takes to get that piece of gear to someone who has no business being there. Also better players really have more in common with mini/max and pushing their numbers then people who rather sit in vent whining about difficulty.

  4. #624
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    If you enjoy the game play it and if you don't enjoy it anymore go play something else. I don't understand how this is a difficult concept for so many people on these boards.
    Time+money investment says "Hi".
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  5. #625
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    I can say that I still play because I signed that annual pass.

    I enjoyed all previous versions of it because it was easy to get the reward. I have 4 90s, and 2 more about to ding there. They changed the game where you dont get everything right away, you have to work for it. For a casual gamer who only has a few hours to play a week, that sucks! My main only gets gold drops in LFR, while the only other toon I have that CAN raid in LFR gets gear. But yet neither can do the new raid because the ilvl requirement. You dont get as much JP, and VP only once a day. But I can't log in every day. Before, you could see the reward with tabard systems for gear and dailies being optional only for rep or gold.

    They have said you dont have to do dailies to progress in raiding, you dont have to raid to progress in pvp and all that junk. They are correct, you don't. You also don't have to play if you are bored, unless under a contract. I tell you though since I can only get on a few hours, I spend more time doing old world stuff just for the fact that I cant devote enough time to progress in current content.

    That seems to be many people's problem now is that they want people to devote a lot of time in to get the reward, because things were so easy. So it's really who does Blizz want to be happy? The casual gamer, or the hard core gamer? They seem to sway back and forth on that one.
    Black Dragonflight: Kalel (Paladin), Ramage (Death Knight), Liquidc (Warrior), Ironpanda (Monk), Nahdar (Shaman), Tokare (Druid), Jenista (Priest), Anabolix (Rogue), Findecano (Hunter), Lohra (Mage), Luminya (Warlock)

  6. #626
    Quote Originally Posted by Volitar View Post
    If you enjoy the game play it and if you don't enjoy it anymore go play something else. I don't understand how this is a difficult concept for so many people on these boards.
    Its because they still enjoy the game most of the time but just want it TAILORED around THEM. Me, Myself and I.

  7. #627
    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    i am agreeing with you and this is why the better players do not raid with the bad players as you mentioned before.
    It's also because it benefits those better players because the content is sufficiently difficult that carrying the bads will hold them back.

    So my point is: if getting the goods to carry the bads is important, the game must not have difficult content, otherwise the goods will have incentive to ditch the bads.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "Almost every time I have gotten to know a critic personally, they keep up with the criticism but lose the venom." -- Ghostcrawler
    I hate these casual Fridays ruining it for real Fridays.

  8. #628
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    No, I don't think most of those who are bad would have gotten better. I think there's an inherent skill gap, and nerfing is just catering to it. Cataclysm was based on the idea that challenge would lead to improvement. It failed because that doesn't work overall.
    Those who are bad can get better, whether they choose to is a different matter. And the inherent skill gap just means that a bad player that improves may never be as good as a good player that improves. By the same token a bad player that puts in effort and improves can end up better than a good player that doesn't put in any work overall.

    Saying that players can never get better means that you also believe that everything in life is predetermined and unchangeable. You'll die the same person you were born as. That says a lot about you. If you are representative of the majority of the playerbase I dispair.

    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    Do you think people even try to get better? I have heard people say they want to get better and offer them help. Guess what? They dont want to get better but just want to bitch about it. My friend GM that always talks of wanting to get better is running his fire mage horribly and i tried helping him but he doesnt want to change so they struggle at 4/16, which he also bitches about. People are lazy and dont want to put any sort of effort into anything pretty much. I play all of the games i play for fun but love the competitive nature of each of them from Wow to BF3. i sucked at BF3 but got better after changing a few things, 10min of checking some things out lol. In my experience every person who I have seen bitching, from being called op in a heroic or lfr, to a random person in a guild i am in on my alt, to each i offered help to and i usually get rage back or no answer, or maybe next time i am on.
    You're right, a lot of people don't try to get better. However, how good they can eventually become is a matter for debate. Some people are inherently better than others. It's a simple truth that people hate to admit, or like to qualify. The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how much I practice I will never be as good as Michael Jordan was at basketball. I will never be as intelligent and insightful as Stephen Hawking. To assume the difference between them and me is simply hard work is, well, let's just say misguided. Now that being said, did going to basketball camps and spending hours in the gym make me a better basketball player? Hell yes. Did reading various works and going to seminars and classes expand my mind? Once again, hell yes.

    Osmeric is undervaluing the potential for improvement due to investment, you seem to overvalue it. Players can get better, but they also have inherent limitations to how good they can be and some of them will always be bad.

  9. #629
    Quote Originally Posted by hyphnos View Post
    In a given day, I try to do one set of dailies, one dungeon on my main and I try to get my main and 1 alt through LFR in the course of the week. That is the bare minimum of what I consider I need to do to keep up with my playstyle which had evolved to a valor gear/LFR progression.

    Doing that takes up pretty much ALL the time I want to devote to a single game and as you can see it leaves a lot left undone that could be done, some of which I'd like to do.
    That's the design change in MoP, which is meant to be more like Classic and TBC and a little bit from Wrath. You're not MEANT to be done. WoW became a huge success over the grind of other MMOs because you could accomplish something in 30 minute to an hour chunk. That didn't mean you would raise your rep, run dungeons, get your gear drops, and run a raid guaranteed every week and still have downtime.

    MMOs have gotten so far away from the concept of being an immersive expansive world that it's just sad. There should ALWAYS be more to do and it should not be a necessity that game designers ensure everyone can do it all with minimal time investment. That's one of the hallmarks that differentiated MMOs from a generic console shooter or console RPG and it's been watered down.

    I'm glad Blizzard is expanding the breadth of the world's size again, even if it means no completing everything or getting around to alts. Classic and TBC is was pretty uncommon for someone to have more than 3 high level alts. Wrath it was more frequent but not standard. By Cataclysm it's become expected that the game be designed for everyone to be capable of having
    1 Main in full raid gear
    1-3 alts in raid gear
    10 alts capable of max level with full reputations and decently geared
    More alts of lower level to fool around with
    And still free time with nothing left to work on in game 3 days of the week.

    Blizzard shouldn't be designing a game in a genre that is heavily built on its social aspects so that each individual player is 100% self sufficient through alts.

    Your entire post is weighted heavily towards the concept of player time is valuable so the game should be designed for quicker, instant gratification. To that effect:
    With Tillers taking 10 minutes
    Klaxxi about 30
    Golden Lotus about 30-45
    Shieldwall/Dominance about 30ish
    Scenarios take about 30 minutes
    Heroics, perhaps 30 to an hour depending on queue times.

    This is very much designed around a strong foundation of where WoW grew. You can accomplish SOMETHING in brief periods of time. That does not mean you should be guaranteed to accomplish EVERYTHING in a short period of time. And these faction reps weren't meant to be approached with a "everything at revered in 1 month" mentality. If you approached it that way, that's fine, but your decision to do so burned you out, not Blizzard's design. There's a lot to be said about design vs. player choice of play style.

    The player base simply got too accustomed to having everything handed to them with minimal effort and that's a fact supported by how many people cite working on multiple alts at max level as an example of "Cataclysm's brilliant design." If Cataclysm hadn't watered itself down (and I even agree it was tuned too difficult for LFG at the start) so much and made gear acquisition so easy, you wouldn't have seen that many alts as players would have been focused on their mains.

    Yes. As predicted, we have reached the point in this expansion where Cataclysm was a brilliant, wonderfully designed expansion. Just like Cata sucked and Wrath was perfect and Wrath sucked and TBC was perfect.
    Last edited by Faroth; 2012-11-29 at 09:24 PM.
    "There is good and evil in this world; we must find the black and white in the gray."

  10. #630
    Yes, no effort, just easy and fast. Must be a fun game to play.

  11. #631
    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    Success is reaching your goals, whatever they are. If its to clear raids in normal mode, you're successful. It seems a lot of people have that goal but instead of putting efforts towards it (because yes, an hobby can requires efforts for it to be enjoyable, if someone like to paint in his free time but don't put any kind of efforts in getting better at it, he won't be happy with his paintings and will quit doing it).

    The amount of time required to do something will always be relative to the difficulty of a task, raiding normal modes currently requires you to do Tillers + ONE of the Valor Rewards factions everyday or so (you can skip a couple). Thats it, this way you have access to 275 food + valor gear and you probably make extra gold from your farm to buy your flasks and pots mats. Thats half an hour a day, if even + whatever your guild requires.

    I promise you doing this will allow you to clear the current raids in normal while they are current.

    A reasonable amount of time is whatever you consider you can spend doing nothing productive and enjoying yourself. Quick question, how much time do you spend playing other games, or watching T.V, versus the time you spend on WoW? Assuming you split free time between 4 different activities, while you have people like me that don't really play any other game, and never watch T.V outside a few movies or episodes of a serie i enjoy on Netflix a week, is it fair that i get more out of my main hobby since i focus more time on it, while still being a functional individual by our societie's standards?
    I'm not asking for advice on how to efficiently play the game. I pretty much know exactly what I want to do, how to get it done and how efficiently I can get it done and the amount of time it adds up to is a lot more than 30 minutes per day.

    Let's look at a typical day for me:
    30 minutes for dailies (can be more or less depending which sets you do) but a fair average x 7 = 3.5 hrs/week
    1 dungeon with some allowance for queue 30 minutes x 7 = 3.5 hrs
    5 x LFR with queue at say 1 hr = 5 hours
    Alt through LFR 5 hrs

    Right there, without doing anything extra, without allowing for time going here and there buying stuff, cooking food, making flasks, tending auctions, fiddling with changing gear/gemming/enchanting reforging.

    17 hrs per week.

    For 1 main and 1 LFR alt without much rep.

    Do you play more than that ? If so, by what margin. I gather you're a normal mode raider so you can probably get your main to revered drop factions and just raid. Even so, that has to take time and you probably want to fill in your valor either from LFR or dungeons.

    If you play 35 hrs per week, yeah you should get more out of the game than me. But the thing is, a well designed game for the masses will let people who play 5-10 hrs get to where I am at 17 hrs. Absolutely the people who put the most in should get the most out but at this point, I suspect the most elite raiders are putting in less time than most of the casual and getting a lot more out of it.

    While that is "fair", it is not realistic game design. Demanding less time of the less committed to get their lesser rewards wouldn't undermine the skill based achievements of the elite.

    The mindless timesink of valor capping and rep grinding doesn't add entertainment value to me, it's just something I have to do to "succeed" by my admittedly medium definition of success. If I wanted to raid with an organized guild (something I've done both in EQ and here) I could probably get further with less time input.

    In short, time input is too high at the low end and in the middle (for raiders who are chain wiping) and lesser for people who only need valor and rep a little bit.

    This is a LOT of players. Many many more than those who have the luxury of primarily raiding normal or heroics.

    In closing to stress my point. I don't think that if a player does 80 hrs a week of dailies, they should get better stuff than you if you do harder content but at the same time, I don't think they should have to play more than 5-10 hrs a week to be at the bottom end of the progression chain. The fact that it does take more than that is why I consider the time demand unreasonable and a big factor in the dropoff in play show in the OP.

  12. #632
    The Lightbringer Kevyne-Shandris's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zergal View Post
    So WoW is easy and requires a reasonable amount of time to be succesfull at, yet you, Osmeric and a few others keep crying for nerfs? Not sure i follow your logic there.
    Who's crying for nerfs?

    Warlocks in BGs with critting 164k Chaos Bolts isn't normal and yes needs to be nerfed. When you can't play your role and just watch players die as counters mean nothing with that much damage, yeah, a nerf is needed. Healers are putting 3 HoTs on players affected and pumping heals and it's not enough, that's when you call in for a nerf, not the petty stuff.

    FYI, I never went back to FL due to that nerf, as I wasn't complaining about it. I actually enjoyed the 2 months of only people wanting to be there and TRY working on the bosses, not this wait for a nerf and everyone but their dead uncle finally raids deal.

    So just stop with the usual WoW blanket excuses already.
    From the #1 Cata review on Amazon.com: "Blizzard's greatest misstep was blaming players instead of admitting their mistakes. They've convinced half of the population that the other half are unskilled whiners, causing a permanent rift in the community."
    Blizzard's blame game in action: Deleting 6,100+ of Kevyne's posts and threads from the WoW forums.

  13. #633
    Quote Originally Posted by Kissme View Post
    Those who are bad can get better, whether they choose to is a different matter. And the inherent skill gap just means that a bad player that improves may never be as good as a good player that improves. By the same token a bad player that puts in effort and improves can end up better than a good player that doesn't put in any work overall.

    Saying that players can never get better means that you also believe that everything in life is predetermined and unchangeable. You'll die the same person you were born as. That says a lot about you. If you are representative of the majority of the playerbase I dispair.



    You're right, a lot of people don't try to get better. However, how good they can eventually become is a matter for debate. Some people are inherently better than others. It's a simple truth that people hate to admit, or like to qualify. The simple fact of the matter is that no matter how much I practice I will never be as good as Michael Jordan was at basketball. I will never be as intelligent and insightful as Stephen Hawking. To assume the difference between them and me is simply hard work is, well, let's just say misguided. Now that being said, did going to basketball camps and spending hours in the gym make me a better basketball player? Hell yes. Did reading various works and going to seminars and classes expand my mind? Once again, hell yes.

    Osmeric is undervaluing the potential for improvement due to investment, you seem to overvalue it. Players can get better, but they also have inherent limitations to how good they can be and some of them will always be bad.
    I think the dumbed down rotations blizzard has implemented along with the numerous addons and class guides take most of the difficulty out of something already trivial. You want to compare being good at wow as hard as basketball camp? A 3-4 button rotation? I understand where you are going with it but in all reality wow is very easy.

  14. #634
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    It's also because it benefits those better players because the content is sufficiently difficult that carrying the bads will hold them back.

    So my point is: if getting the goods to carry the bads is important, the game must not have difficult content, otherwise the goods will have incentive to ditch the bads.
    If the game had no difficult content then the goods would just leave, or they would still abandon the bads as there is still no incentive to carry them. The continued movement to smaller raid sizes in and of itself has decreased the incentive to carry players. Why carry bad players in a 25 man when a 10 man gives them same rewards and you can cut the chaff?

    And if the goods raid for a challenge, then clearing everything on the first week because there was no difficult content would remove them from the game anyways.

    Normal mode content is easily clearable by average players in a short time frame. Hard mode content can be approached by average players on a longer time frame, and by upper echelon players on a fairly rapid pace. Normal mode content is clearable by bad players on the same timeframe that hard mode content is cleared by average players.

    The problem comes when bad players expect to clear hardmode content as quickly as average or upper echelon players.

    Accept your limitations.

  15. #635
    Great post Faroth, completely agree with everything you said.

  16. #636
    Quote Originally Posted by Kevyne-Shandris View Post
    Time+money investment says "Hi".
    I have played (and payed for) this game for 8 years now. But the second I stop enjoying it I'm out, time and money be damned.
    Why on earth would you keep paying for (and force yourself to play) something you don't enjoy......

  17. #637
    People always wanting what they didnt earn. Obamacare at its best. So you dont want to put the time in but want what others have lol. The elite are effecient and good at what they do so you think they get more than you, which they should. In life the more effort you put in the better is usually is but in wow you want less effort but the same reward. I LOVE the idea of because you pay the same amount you deserve the same content which led to the nerfing, guess what there is nothing but YOURSELF holding you back from doing it.

  18. #638
    If you're raiding normal modes and you're restricted in time, why do you even do LFR, or even play an alt? Personally i'm probably playing around 25-40 hours a week (including week ends) depending on a lot of factors (if i'm going out or not etc), but like i said its my main hobby, so i spend very little time on other things like T.V.

    Valor capping is too long, i'll agree with that, but it has nothing to do with raid difficulties. You can pretty much ignore dailies once you're revered, there's more time efficient ways to cap valors. Iif you're looking strictly for valor per hours, bronze challenge mode runs are a very efficient way).

  19. #639
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isadorr View Post
    I think the dumbed down rotations blizzard has implemented along with the numerous addons and class guides take most of the difficulty out of something already trivial. You want to compare being good at wow as hard as basketball camp? A 3-4 button rotation? I understand where you are going with it but in all reality wow is very easy.
    Never said it wasn't. I'm just saying that players will have different skill ceilings even if they do put in time and effort. And some players are good at different things. Some people just suck at multitasking, others are terrible at spacial relations or timing. All of these things play into raiding to varying degrees. Muscle twitch speed matters in certain games, or awareness of procs. Some people just don't process these things as efficiently or quickly as others.

    This isn't to say that a lot of players don't lack the will to improve. I think that the idea that a game or hobby shouldn't require skill or effort to achieve goals is foolish, because any sense of accomplishment comes from time and effort. A lot of players seem to think that because WoW is a game, they shouldn't need to improve to be able to accomplish whatever they want in whatever time frame they want. Osmeric seems to think that he should be able to get every piece of gear he wants and beat every boss on the hardest difficulty because he logs in. That's a depressing condemnation of the WoW playerbase in and of itself. However, I do think Blizzard has fostered this attitude by saying that everyone should see all content and then implementing mechanisms to allow such things to happen.

    I was happier in the game when I was working on Twin Emps in Vanilla and failing, even though other guilds were in Naxx 40, than I was at any point after Ulduar because I felt that what I was experiencing was commesurate with the effort I was investing. That sort of attitude seems to have disappeared from the WoW community.

  20. #640
    This is the first time I haven't resubscribed in years. It kinda feels good, cuz I don't feel like I'm missing out on anything important. The way I look at it is Blizz will release patches later that completely obsolete each previous justice/valor gear set from the vendor just like in Cata. So I'll simply just wait until the last patch in the expansion to take a look, that will save me lots of time! Then I'll jump my character leaps and bounds ahead by organizing a pug raid for the hardest raid and ninjalooting the drops I can use.

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