Thread: Seriusly?

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  1. #21
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Rogue problems are threefold and have always been tied to three things:

    Mobility - only melee class lacking a base gap closer (also paladins I guess). Shadowstep was major reason for sub being the rogue pvp tree for a long time. Combined with the reduction of our snare to 50%, rogues now face the problem of being kitable and lacking tools to get back in range or keep the target in range. One or the other would be nice, both would be excellent.

    Burst - rogue burst is questionable at best due to how they generate damage. Lots of damage from passive sources means that you need high uptime on a target to put out real pressure. It also means that it's very difficult to establish kill windows. Old sub had burst in the form of ambush and backstab (which had baked in crit modifiers so they consistently hit for relatively large numbers). Baked in crit is gone. Other trees lack anything other than envenom/evis and not enough damage is baked into those abilities. Combined with mobility this is a large problem. Do I think we need Vanilla one shots or Cata vial ambush level burst - no. But I do think rogues need to have damage rolled into active sources and away from passive sources allowing for kill windows and burst from resource pooling.

    Timer reliance - rogues with timers have always been too powerful and without have always been super vulnerable. The problem right now is that the timers are less powerful but the vulnerability has remained. Shorter timer lengths combined with the removal of prep entirely would be my personal solution to this, but it's open to debate.

    On a side note, the over saturation of CC abilities has become an issue. Every class offers a ton of control now, usually with little to no cost in output. Rogues are still operating under an old model of damage sacrificed for control. This has had a side effect of making rogues become less powerful in relation to other classes simply because they haven't been updated to the current game model.

  2. #22
    Since when did gear fix:
    • Terrible mobility
    • Prep/ShS/BoS talent tier
    • Longer CDs on everything
    • Mostly passive damage
    • No survivability/recup nerf
    • Sang vein/hemo nerf
    • Half our toolkit turned into mutually exclusive talents
    • The other half of our toolkit given to other classes in an improved form

    With all the crit modifiers MIA in MoP and most damage redistributed to passive sources and finishers, I really don't think we're going to scale as well as people think we will. Fire Mages though... gotta love 1.5x crit % and their damage scaling insanely well at crit cap, which they will reach in the next tier. Not to mention more crit makes their rotation more fun.
    Last edited by Squirl; 2012-11-29 at 06:49 PM.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    Since when did gear fix:
    • Terrible mobility
    • Prep/ShS/BoS talent tier
    • Longer CDs on everything
    • Mostly passive damage
    • No survivability/recup nerf
    • Sang vein/hemo nerf
    • Half our toolkit turned into mutually exclusive talents
    • The other half of our toolkit given to other classes in an improved form

    With all the crit modifiers MIA in MoP and most damage redistributed to passive sources and finishers, I really don't think we're going to scale as well as people think we will. Fire Mages though... gotta love 1.5x crit % and their damage scaling insanely well at crit cap, which they will reach in the next tier. Not to mention more crit makes their rotation more fun.
    I completely agree with you, however what i feel is the worst part is that blizzard just seem to ignore the communities feedback, I seriously hope they send one of their pet monkeys over and actually reads some of the forum posts both on blizz and other forums.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 07:16 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kissme View Post

    On a side note, the over saturation of CC abilities has become an issue. Every class offers a ton of control now, usually with little to no cost in output. Rogues are still operating under an old model of damage sacrificed for control. This has had a side effect of making rogues become less powerful in relation to other classes simply because they haven't been updated to the current game model.
    I could not agree more with that.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Roguezor View Post
    BUT: rogues weak? Pfft, my ass... yeh, i addmit i don't play a rogue atm, but i play a fury warr. and yesterday/day before i got jumped by a rogue while questing. He got me down in about 5 second, before his stunns even finished. Yeh, he stunnlocked me to death.
    I didn't trinket or anything, so i'm partly to blame i gues... but 5 sec to kill a 370k fury warr with 56.74% pvp resillience? (Was in the new pvp area so quested in pvp gear for safty, which obviously didn't help)
    The main issue with rogues is everything but dmg rogue dmg is very rng with 15% crit we have also. That said that new area if you control the tower you can have up to a 25% dmg buff.

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-29 at 02:47 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Kissme View Post
    Rogue problems are threefold and have always been tied to three things:

    Mobility - only melee class lacking a base gap closer (also paladins I guess). Shadowstep was major reason for sub being the rogue pvp tree for a long time. Combined with the reduction of our snare to 50%, rogues now face the problem of being kitable and lacking tools to get back in range or keep the target in range. One or the other would be nice, both would be excellent.

    Burst - rogue burst is questionable at best due to how they generate damage. Lots of damage from passive sources means that you need high uptime on a target to put out real pressure. It also means that it's very difficult to establish kill windows. Old sub had burst in the form of ambush and backstab (which had baked in crit modifiers so they consistently hit for relatively large numbers). Baked in crit is gone. Other trees lack anything other than envenom/evis and not enough damage is baked into those abilities. Combined with mobility this is a large problem. Do I think we need Vanilla one shots or Cata vial ambush level burst - no. But I do think rogues need to have damage rolled into active sources and away from passive sources allowing for kill windows and burst from resource pooling.

    Timer reliance - rogues with timers have always been too powerful and without have always been super vulnerable. The problem right now is that the timers are less powerful but the vulnerability has remained. Shorter timer lengths combined with the removal of prep entirely would be my personal solution to this, but it's open to debate.

    On a side note, the over saturation of CC abilities has become an issue. Every class offers a ton of control now, usually with little to no cost in output. Rogues are still operating under an old model of damage sacrificed for control. This has had a side effect of making rogues become less powerful in relation to other classes simply because they haven't been updated to the current game model.
    This is the biggest thing pretty much everything rogues have is outdated now with everyone getting our toolkit. Rogues are playing wrath while everyone else is in mop....
    Last edited by wow; 2012-11-29 at 07:42 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by wow View Post
    This is the biggest thing pretty much everything rogues have is outdated now with everyone getting our toolkit. Rogues are playing wrath while everyone else is in mop....
    Wrath? try TBC hehe

  6. #26
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Having to totally relearn the entire class from the ground up is never fun, and can be a major problem for a lot of players, even skilled ones. If each expansion every class was totally re-written and built up to be different, then at some point, you would lose what makes Rogues, Rogues.

    Having the same abilities since Vanilla is not an issue. They've added a lot of mechanics and capabilities to rogues so you're hardly a copy & paste from the days of Classic. That said, I am overall very disappointed in Blizzard. The issue of Rogues in PvP was mentioned by the community very early on within the Beta feedback, and persisted until the final few hours even.

    Balancing PvP isn't to hard if they're prepared to make big, drastic changes to the game. Sure, they take time but it would be nice to know if Blizzard are even prepared to do such drastic changes, such as totally rebuilding all spells to have a PvP & PvE differences. You could simply choose which tooltip you'd prefer to be shown as an interface option, and when in PvP you'd be shown the PvP tooltip.

    They also need to be a lot faster and work a lot more with the community when it comes to PvP Balance. I'm sick to death of being totally owned by Beast Master Hunters & Warriors in Battlegrounds & Arena. It really isn't to hard to just apply a -20% Damage Dealt nerf to them when in Arena, and then upgrade or downgrade that as needed.

    I've never been one to be very critical of Blizzard, but this expansion really has me confused. It is a lot of fun, but I don't recall a time in my 8 year history with World of Warcraft that I've felt this annoyed by their lack of input, communication and change where it is really needed. I'm sure if I thought hard enough, I'd find alternatives, but nothing springs to mind right now.

  7. #27
    I've never been one to be very critical of Blizzard, but this expansion really has me confused. It is a lot of fun, but I don't recall a time in my 8 year history with World of Warcraft that I've felt this annoyed by their lack of input, communication and change where it is really needed. I'm sure if I thought hard enough, I'd find alternatives, but nothing springs to mind right now.
    True that. The fact rogue went live like they were in beta even tough people gave feedback is what seems strange to me had i not been so attatched to my rogue I would have leveld my mage or warrior like everyone else.

  8. #28
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bjebbis View Post
    True that. The fact rogue went live like they were in beta even tough people gave feedback is what seems strange to me had i not been so attatched to my rogue I would have leveld my mage or warrior like everyone else.
    It isn't just isolated to Rogues either. Almost all the issues faced on the current live game, including PvP & PvE were almost all reported in Beta. I recall sending in almost hours worth of feedback, and yet most of the things I mentioned were never dealt with.

    The problem Blizzard faces at the moment is they've got a game that is divided. It is partly new, and partly old. What they need to do is to revamp their efforts and improve the game at a faster pace. I'm sure they're trying to do it, and I don't doubt they're aware of the issue, but I just don't feel they're doing enough to address obvious issues, that are seriously impacting the enjoyment of their players.

    Yes, we're early in the expansion so things are slower, and more prone to issues. Many Rogues complain about how slow they feel, ignoring the fact that they're no longer in end-game BiS Gear with the Haste Caps. Part of the issue lies with the community, not totally understanding the situation, but that derives from Blizzard not communicating in a clear and understandable way.

    They can't expect the majority of the community to be on MMO-Champion or even the Official Forums. Their in-game help database needs to be improved upon massively, with latest news, posts and updates. They also need to talk more with the community, similar to how they do at Blizzcon. Hiring a few guys to just do that, wouldn't be to hard.

  9. #29
    They can't expect the majority of the community to be on MMO-Champion or even the Official Forums. Their in-game help database needs to be improved upon massively, with latest news, posts and updates. They also need to talk more with the community, similar to how they do at Blizzcon. Hiring a few guys to just do that, wouldn't be to hard.
    that is a great idea however blizzard wouldn't get the idea themselves and its quite clear they're not reading the forums, or they just don't give a F***

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnarch View Post
    All guys who QQ about the state of rogues now, have never played a balance druid... At least you are not at the bottom of the food chain.
    Sorry, did you mean to compare balance to combat?

    Or did you mean to compare rogues to druids?


    Because you compared a spec to a whole class. I hope you can see how that's meaningless.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnarch View Post
    All guys who QQ about the state of rogues now, have never played a balance druid... At least you are not at the bottom of the food chain.
    You have 3 other specs... this thread is about the entire rogue class. Comparing it to one of your four specs is just retarded. Why the hell do hybrids always come into the rogue forums posting garbage like this... your single spec should not ever be equated with an entire class.

  12. #32
    "But my arcane mage sucks guys!"

  13. #33
    Unless you are raiding or just messing with PVE, dont touch your rogue for PvP if you dont want to rage.....if you thought that wrath burst was bad for rogue because of CDs, MoP is worse.....

  14. #34
    Remember how everyone used to complain about Cloak of Skill and Cheat Death?

    Those were good days my friends, good days.
    You tried too hard and now your post is shit. Never try too hard, the gamble isn't worth it. -Boubouille

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Koji2k11 View Post
    well almost all skills are the same since vanile some skills were added, gameplay is still the same keep SnD up press combo builders use them for finishers
    In fact, SnD as best possible finisher wasn't obvious for most rogues even with AQ release. Everybody just ran around with 31-8-12 cookie-cutter build and talent tree had such "awesome" gems like "throwing weapon spec" (+6 yds to your throw as 6th tier of combat tree), or "improved sap" - 90% chance to not break the stealth after using sap (yes, stealth was always broken after using sap without this talent).
    Not to mention that in the end of "classic" WoW top-DPS build for rogues was horrible "combat-dagger" spec 15-31-5, utterly useless outside the raids, combat had no alternatives even in TBC (say hello to poison and bleed immune mobs and bosses).
    And i'm not even talking about 8 (EIGHT) debuff slots for bosses in classic wow (was doubled later to 16). Rogues weren't allowed to use deadly poison in raids (not to mention that for example in MC only humanoids weren't immune to ANY kind of poisons anyway)

    So yes, suuuureeee, it's completely the same as in "vanilla".
    Quote Originally Posted by Soratrox View Post
    Remember how everyone used to complain about Cloak of Skill and Cheat Death?
    Those were good days my friends, good days.
    CoS that still had 10% chance to be hit through?
    And apart from very short period in TBC, when Cheat Death multiplied itself (rogue had like 99% damage reduction during those 3 seconds) nobody really complained about it.
    What people really complaned about - HARP build with mace spec during S2. Or rogues, running 4+4 with glaives in S4.
    Last edited by Mazius; 2012-11-30 at 01:50 AM.

  16. #36
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    @Hyve, we have gotten some updates since Vanilla, but other classes have gotten much, much more. Remember vanilla judgments? Or soulshards? Or ammunition? Lots of other classes have gotten our abilities. Hunters have camoflague. Mages have invis. Stealth masters is what rogues should be, but hunters have a higher stealth level, not to mention flare. Druids have great movespeed while prowling. What is AMS if not a watered down CoS? The only thing that makes rogues unique now is smokebomb and lockpocking, and lockpicking just isnt the same now that every rogue has it maxxed for free.

    I would love a warlock style makeover.
    Why is there no "Demonhunter" hero class yet? He was only the coolest hero in WC3. Get busy Blizzard.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    I would love a warlock style makeover.
    This. Rogues could be so much cooler and the specs could feel different.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Memnarch View Post
    All guys who QQ about the state of rogues now, have never played a balance druid... At least you are not at the bottom of the food chain.
    in the news at 11 : someone comparing a complete class to a spec again, for the gazillionth time.
    I am wondering: when will people stop doing this? Fyi: resto druids are pretty OP. so spec into resto and stop QQ-ing yourself.
    People can be whoever they choose to be on the internet - It is strange that so many people choose to be stupid.

    every time I see someone mentioning the word "rouge" I get the urge to say "yes, we are overpowdered"...

  19. #39
    The craziest thing is that if you look at feral druids, they have so many tools that should be available to rogues. My druid has been lvl60 for ages and I played an hour the other day. It's just incredible:
    - equivalent of shadow step,
    - something that give you instantly 60 energy and increases your damage on a 30s cooldown in base line!
    - a finishing move in base line that increases your damage by 30% and that you can even cast for free if glyphed
    - a CD that actually reduces all damages taken
    - I'm not even going to talk about the other possibilities offered to druids due to their hybrid nature (heals, stuns, etc...)
    At lvl 60!

    Why an hybrid actually has tools that are not available to the class that was initially designed for stealth and melee DPS using energy and combo points?
    They removed our thistle tea, why don't we have an equivalent of tiger's fury?

    And for those who will say go play feral --> no I want to play my rogue, it has been the case for 6yrs or more and I would like to be able to play the class I like.

    Anyway I'll just wait, maybe we will be good at something again in the next expac...

    just watched that part of WoR again

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vnvn0...tailpage#t=98s
    Last edited by Gnu; 2012-11-30 at 09:22 AM.

  20. #40
    Old God Hyve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Evi1Toad View Post
    we have gotten some updates since Vanilla, but other classes have gotten much, much more. Remember vanilla judgments? Or soulshards? Or ammunition? Lots of other classes have gotten our abilities. Hunters have camoflague. Mages have invis. Stealth masters is what rogues should be, but hunters have a higher stealth level, not to mention flare. Druids have great movespeed while prowling. What is AMS if not a watered down CoS? The only thing that makes rogues unique now is smokebomb and lockpocking, and lockpicking just isnt the same now that every rogue has it maxxed for free.

    I would love a warlock style makeover.
    I'm not even going to argue against your points because they're all right. Hunters, as you mentioned, are a prime example of where a lack of foresight and class design allowed them to not only surpass one class in a mechanism once exclusive to them, but also still allowed them to maintain a break way to break the weaker version of their enemy.

    I really do think Blizzard has fucked up. A lot of classes feel very much the same, there is little difference between them and I feel that is the cause of a lot of anger by people. They've done a few things to address this in Mists of Pandaria, but I still see Warlocks & Mages as the exact same thing, just different armour.

    They need to go back and give each class their own unique strengths, weaknesses and abilities. I prefer that today, almost all buffs are available on a limited class selection, I do prefer that, but taking away a lot of the uniqueness of some classes has really ruined the game not just for those that play them, but for others as well.

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