Seriusly?

[Deleted]

Since when did gear fix:

• Terrible mobility
• Prep/ShS/BoS talent tier
• Longer CDs on everything
• Mostly passive damage
• No survivability/recup nerf
• Sang vein/hemo nerf
• Half our toolkit turned into mutually exclusive talents
• The other half of our toolkit given to other classes in an improved form

With all the crit modifiers MIA in MoP and most damage redistributed to passive sources and finishers, I really don't think we're going to scale as well as people think we will. Fire Mages though... gotta love 1.5x crit % and their damage scaling insanely well at crit cap, which they will reach in the next tier. Not to mention more crit makes their rotation more fun.

So I guess most of people in this thread are PvPers, because in PvE rogues are doing fine (as usual).

- Shadowstep/BoS and Sprint makes for more mobility than a lot of other classes
- Prep/ShS/BoS is a great tier that I often re-learn depending on encounter
- Cooldowns are pretty much unchanged for assa and combat
- With talented Feint, Rogues have arguably the best long-term survivability of all classes; check any damage taken log from top raiding guilds
- Now you have to choose your tools for each fight; status quo

This thread should be in the PvP forum. Otherwise someone is just trolling.

[Shaderas]

So I guess most of people in this thread are PvPers, because in PvE rogues are doing fine (as usual).

- Shadowstep/BoS and Sprint makes for more mobility than a lot of other classes
- Prep/ShS/BoS is a great tier that I often re-learn depending on encounter
- Cooldowns are pretty much unchanged for assa and combat
- With talented Feint, Rogues have arguably the best long-term survivability of all classes; check any damage taken log from top raiding guilds
- Now you have to choose your tools for each fight; status quo

This thread should be in the PvP forum. Otherwise someone is just trolling.

This is solely about Rogues, so it should remain in this forum. This forum applies to both PVP and PVE concerns of the rogue class solely.

Anyways, our mobility is one of the worst for melees in PVP. Prep/ShS/BoS is a terrible tier for PVP'ers as it is a nerf as stuff we used to receive anyways (except BoS) and now have to make choices between the two.

I think another complaint is that the specs feel too similar in their mechanics, and people wanted there to more differentiation.

Feint is useful in PVP, however, we certainly don't have the best survivability in PVP, as applied to melee classes.

[Squirl]

So I guess most of people in this thread are PvPers, because in PvE rogues are doing fine (as usual).

- Shadowstep/BoS and Sprint makes for more mobility than a lot of other classes
- Prep/ShS/BoS is a great tier that I often re-learn depending on encounter
- Cooldowns are pretty much unchanged for assa and combat
- With talented Feint, Rogues have arguably the best long-term survivability of all classes; check any damage taken log from top raiding guilds
- Now you have to choose your tools for each fight; status quo

This thread should be in the PvP forum. Otherwise someone is just trolling.

The discussion has been PvP oriented from the OP, so I was in that state of mind. I do think we're in a fairly good place for PvE, but it's pretty boring and each spec is pretty similar.

[Wayne25uk]

did you get a paycheck from blizzard for replying such Bs on other forums ? do you think mobility issues just disappear because we get better gear ?

Edit: sometimes i belive blizzards is thinking the following ( the ultimate answer to all rogue issues in MoP: Reroll another class, who wants rouges anyway. )

Do you want some cheese with that whine? Sheesh get over yourself already just because i talk sense and have a lot of restrain and patience im classed as a bullshitter,yeh gz on the deduction skills their watson!

[Lolretadin]

See, I have a question to the Rogue community. WHY should Rogues be one of the top PvP classes? Really? You guys seem to do nothing but complain when you aren't top. The top 5s team in the world has a Rogue, the 4th best 2s team has a Rogue, and the 38th best 3s team has a Rogue. You guys are in a better place than most other specs for PvP, and I don't know why you guys are complaining.

With the exception of Mages, no one has your control. Your burst is fine, and you are still 2500 rating viable. I would go so far as to say that Rogues are one of the better PvP classes when played well in Arenas. The vast majority of Rogues are probably only crying because Swifty released that asinine video of Mercader not knowing how to play a Rogue. He was out played. Deal with it. There are very few dps classes that can burst down a healer in a few seconds once you get over the 2k rating, and I don't think the Rogue community understands how to play without being as blatantly overpowered as they were in Cata.

And I see some posts about Rogues crying that people are saying for them to get gear, so what? If you only have full dreadful, don't expect to global another person with full dreadful in arena.

Seriously, you guys are worse than the Ret community complaining in 3.0 about the nerfs to their burst.

TL;DR
Rogues are fine, people just don't understand what a learning curb is or what non-1v1 PvP is.

[Khas]

So you're saying I should just give up my rogue and so should everyone else that play, and roll a FoTM class untill rogues are "playable" again?

i play a rogue for quite some time now and we are fine. we might not be top class as we were in the end of cata but we are doing fine. ( talking about pve here). and rerolling a fotm class ? why would anyone do that ? i thought people play classes they like no matter how they perform

[celinamuna]

You guys are in a better place than most other specs for PvP, and I don't know why you guys are complaining.

Rogues are fine, people just don't understand what a learning curb is or what non-1v1 PvP is.

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/ Really ? Really ? And i'm sure all of the rogues who were playing since vanilla are terrible players and can't adopt to changes in their class.... oh wait a second

[Koji2k11]

just because i talk sense

what exatly on your statement made sense ? the statemant rogues are fine in pvp and scale better with gear? i remember blues saying that, you are just copy pasting their crap nothing more nothing less!
fact is rogues are in a bad state in pvp and gear wont fix anything with all the nerfs we got. mobility issues will remain nothing will change unless blizzard decides to look over us and give us our mobility back

[Lolretadin]

http://www.crossladder.com/arena/stats/ Really ? Really ? And i'm sure all of the rogues who were playing since vanilla are terrible players and can't adopt to changes in their class.... oh wait a second

Because representation == ability, right?
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

Just because you played since vanilla, doesn't mean you know how to play now. It doesn't even mean you know how to adapt, especially since Rogues have barely changed in play style from expansion to expansion. Just because Rogues aren't a mindless PvP class anymore, doesn't mean they're bad. Sure, representation is bad above 2k. Why is this? Because the player base wants to be OP or just quit.

[Speaknoevil]

I have not lost to a single rogue team this season at glad mmr[multiple battlegroups] on any of my characters.

Rogues are not in a good place.

[Deleted]

rogues are shit, should have re rolled a monk

[celinamuna]

Because representation == ability, right?
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html
http://www.worldofwargraphs.com/stat...-0-0-0--0.html

Just because you played since vanilla, doesn't mean you know how to play now. It doesn't even mean you know how to adapt, especially since Rogues have barely changed in play style from expansion to expansion. Just because Rogues aren't a mindless PvP class anymore, doesn't mean they're bad. Sure, representation is bad above 2k. Why is this? Because the player base wants to be OP or just quit.

There's only 1 team in 2v2 with a rogue above 2.2k making it the anomaly, the fact that they placed 4th is good, but it's only further proving the point.
In 3v3 we see a bunch more, but they're a lot more rare then other classes. In 5v5 rogue was most likely taken for the smokebomb and probably got to that rating because other classes were strong (warrior/hunter/mage).

And hey, using that logic every single class / spec in wow has ability to pvp, hell you even have the ability to even hit 2200 without any armor / weapons, just run around naked, now will that happen ? No.

[Evi1Toad]

Lolretadin, the thing about rogues is they arent the best at anything now. Why bring a rogue when mages have about the same cc and much higher burst, sustained, and mobility? There is none, other than pity. Mages, druids, and priests have vanish in some form. Druids and hunters have better stealth. Pallys and monks have a better, non target specific combopoint system. Other classes get our abilities and mechanics and we get... nerfed. Very little new abilities, and aou talent tree has several abilities we used to have baseline, or should have anyway. Pallys have a combopoint overflow. Versitility is a bandaid trying to make out CP not target specific.

Rogue CC comes at a dps loss, really no other class has that atleast not to the degree of rogues.

Also, rogues have not changed. If anything, we have devolved. I miss the old "swashbuckler" combat. Riposite will always be my favorite ability. I miss psudo tanking lower level stuff. I liked speccing for specific weapons. It felt more unique. Rogues have changed very little. Almost the same as vanilla. Going from your 30 sec seals to what you have now, stances basically, has been an evolving process. The change from cata to MoP warlocks was huge. Rogues didnt get diddly. We lost baseline abilities to be used as talents.

[Wayne25uk]

what exatly on your statement made sense ? the statemant rogues are fine in pvp and scale better with gear? i remember blues saying that, you are just copy pasting their crap nothing more nothing less!
fact is rogues are in a bad state in pvp and gear wont fix anything with all the nerfs we got. mobility issues will remain nothing will change unless blizzard decides to look over us and give us our mobility back

All i hear is me me me me,such a selfish attitude,blizzard have a mountain of things to work on just because they didnt help rogues out this patch doesnt mean we are forgotten forever,learn to wait ffs and grow up!

[Bozzy]

Blizzard can't buff the rogue to be competitive. The plan is to reduce the rogue population because it's to high since free legendarys.

[Kael]

Cool it on the personal side, folks. Language can tone down, and if you have person-specific discussions to take on, I recommend Private Messages.

Personally I just get sad each time I start leveling a new character with less H DS gear and roll over the content harder when I don't remember my keybinds, but then, I don't pvp.

[Lolretadin]

Lolretadin, the thing about rogues is they arent the best at anything now. Why bring a rogue when mages have about the same cc and much higher burst, sustained, and mobility? There is none, other than pity. Mages, druids, and priests have vanish in some form. Druids and hunters have better stealth. Pallys and monks have a better, non target specific combopoint system. Other classes get our abilities and mechanics and we get... nerfed. Very little new abilities, and aou talent tree has several abilities we used to have baseline, or should have anyway. Pallys have a combopoint overflow. Versitility is a bandaid trying to make out CP not target specific.

Rogue CC comes at a dps loss, really no other class has that atleast not to the degree of rogues.

Also, rogues have not changed. If anything, we have devolved. I miss the old "swashbuckler" combat. Riposite will always be my favorite ability. I miss psudo tanking lower level stuff. I liked speccing for specific weapons. It felt more unique. Rogues have changed very little. Almost the same as vanilla. Going from your 30 sec seals to what you have now, stances basically, has been an evolving process. The change from cata to MoP warlocks was huge. Rogues didnt get diddly. We lost baseline abilities to be used as talents.

1) Because Rogues have more control and better utility CDs, such as Smoke Bomb, to get that little bit of extra burst in to kill a player. Mage burst is also much easier to predict and avoid.
2) Mages have always had a vanish and Druid vanish is only good as an escape mechanic, you wont even escape from a competent team with it as a Druid. And Priest vanish is just terrible.
3) Druid stealth is a lot worse, lowering movement speed by 30%, and Hunter stealth reduces movement speed by 50% and requires a glyph. Neither is as good as Rogue stealth.
4) I'll give you that the combo system is better, but you also fail to realize that both Ret Paladin and Monks are worse than Rogues currently. Ret, specifically, is not viable in 2s and has lost most of its viability in 3s and 5s with the healing nerf. And before anyone quotes the websites I linked, the majority of Rets over 2200 are actually Holy if you look at the team members.
5) As I've said before, you do not need to be OP to do well as a Rogue. Seriously, why do you need EVERY talent as baseline? Why are you so entitled?

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 07:47 PM ----------

There's only 1 team in 2v2 with a rogue above 2.2k making it the anomaly, the fact that they placed 4th is good, but it's only further proving the point.
In 3v3 we see a bunch more, but they're a lot more rare then other classes. In 5v5 rogue was most likely taken for the smokebomb and probably got to that rating because other classes were strong (warrior/hunter/mage).

And hey, using that logic every single class / spec in wow has ability to pvp, hell you even have the ability to even hit 2200 without any armor / weapons, just run around naked, now will that happen ? No.

1) It shows that Rogues can make it to that point. It is not an anomaly, it is showing what a competent Rogue can do. That logic can be applied to anything.
2) The reason Rogues are rare in 3s is because people think the class is bad and just want to faceroll like in Cata.
3) Saying that Rogues were only brought for their abilities in 5s is asinine. WoW wasn't balanced 1v1, don't complain when you have group utility.
4) That entire bold statement is asinine and didn't relate to anything that was said. I know you want to make a point, but the Rogue community has never been able to make a point other than "We want to be OP like we were in Cata."

[Kael]

3) Druid stealth is a lot worse, lowering movement speed by 30%, and Hunter stealth reduces movement speed by 50% and requires a glyph. Neither is as good as Rogue stealth.
5) As I've said before, you do not need to be OP to do well as a Rogue. Seriously, why do you need EVERY talent as baseline? Why are you so entitled?

3) cats move faster in stealth than rogues do outside of it, granted 2p, iirc.
5) The issue is that talents were primarily taken either from existing abilities or years of "why isn't this part of our class" comments on the forums. Being asked to pick between abilities you USED to have all of just sucks, no matter how you play it.

As for 1... I'm not really sure that's the case. Poly/stun at range while opening up the burst damages? Smoke bomb doesn't have a reset anymore, and if it's the only thing we're mentioning for this list, that's one ability?

[Lolretadin]

Cool it on the personal side, folks. Language can tone down, and if you have person-specific discussions to take on, I recommend Private Messages.

Personally I just get sad each time I start leveling a new character with less H DS gear and roll over the content harder when I don't remember my keybinds, but then, I don't pvp.

Well, the point is, just because Rogues cannot compete against a Warrior or a Mage that doesn't mean their under powered! That would be akin to me saying that Warlocks are under powered because they cannot beat a Mage 1v1. It's an argument that leads into such redundancy that all the statement ends up amounting to is that said person wants their class to be OP. There are a lot of classes Rogues are better off than, the reason Rogue representation went down is because of the Cata-babies wanting to play a face roll class. Sorry Rogue community, you guys get the high skill cap this expansion.

[Kael]

Well, the point is, just because Rogues cannot compete against a Warrior or a Mage that doesn't mean their under powered! That would be akin to me saying that Warlocks are under powered because they cannot beat a Mage 1v1. It's an argument that leads into such redundancy that all the statement ends up amounting to is that said person wants their class to be OP. There are a lot of classes Rogues are better off than, the reason Rogue representation went down is because of the Cata-babies wanting to play a face roll class. Sorry Rogue community, you guys get the high skill cap this expansion.

I wasn't aware there were "classes" that rogues are having a lot better time than in PvP right now... I heard monks might be in a tight spot, but as far as I know, they're the only ones. On a related note in the bold, I don't hear about rogues being able to solo ANY class, which would indicate not rock paper scissors, but more like rotten balsa wood paper scissors.

Also, please re-read what you quoted, hm?