Seriusly?

[Mugajak]

Well, the point is, just because Rogues cannot compete against a Warrior or a Mage that doesn't mean their under powered! That would be akin to me saying that Warlocks are under powered because they cannot beat a Mage 1v1. It's an argument that leads into such redundancy that all the statement ends up amounting to is that said person wants their class to be OP. There are a lot of classes Rogues are better off than, the reason Rogue representation went down is because of the Cata-babies wanting to play a face roll class. Sorry Rogue community, you guys get the high skill cap this expansion.

I wasn't aware there were "classes" that rogues are having a lot better time than in PvP right now... I heard monks might be in a tight spot, but as far as I know, they're the only ones. On a related note in the bold, I don't hear about rogues being able to solo ANY class, which would indicate not rock paper scissors, but more like rotten balsa wood paper scissors.

Also, please re-read what you quoted, hm?

[Lolretadin]

3) cats move faster in stealth than rogues do outside of it, granted 2p, iirc.
5) The issue is that talents were primarily taken either from existing abilities or years of "why isn't this part of our class" comments on the forums. Being asked to pick between abilities you USED to have all of just sucks, no matter how you play it.

As for 1... I'm not really sure that's the case. Poly/stun at range while opening up the burst damages? Smoke bomb doesn't have a reset anymore, and if it's the only thing we're mentioning for this list, that's one ability?

1) Feral stealth speed is 70% movement, with cat increasing movement speed by 25%. You'e looking at a approximately 91% movement speed in stealth. If they use their sprint, they gain 70% additional movement and increase to 154.7% movement. So, yes. With the use of a CD, a Feral moves faster than a Rogue. Just looked at the PvP 2 set, it's +15% outdoors. So you're looking at 100.625% movement speed while stealthed. Unless the set bonus is calculated differently than usual movement speed increases.
5) If you gave Rogues all of them, it would be too much control and maneuverability. Rogues should NOT be able to stay in melee 100% of the time; no other melee can either.

You're missing the point. Mage burst is REALLY easy to counter. They get a 4 second window every 30 seconds, trinkets/CD every 2 min, to do their burst. One silence or interrupt, or even the use of trinket to escape, negates the Mage's burst. And the ability was only an example, I'm not going to take time to learn about the Rogue class in depth for a thread like this.

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 08:04 PM ----------

I wasn't aware there were "classes" that rogues are having a lot better time than in PvP right now... I heard monks might be in a tight spot, but as far as I know, they're the only ones. On a related note in the bold, I don't hear about rogues being able to solo ANY class, which would indicate not rock paper scissors, but more like rotten balsa wood paper scissors.

Also, please re-read what you quoted, hm?

With the nerf to PvP power, Ret has lost viability in 2v2, and most of their survive-ability in 3s and 5s.
Boomkin and Ele Shammy are still both worse in Arenas. However, they both shine in RBGs.

There's a reason for the bold. What the Rogue community wants is a digression back to the way things were in Cata, that's all that the points I see being brought up add to. In fact, it seems the community wants to be even better than they were in Cata with the addition of new abilities and the addition of a new combo point system. Rogues going back to the way they were in Cata, when they were the top PvP class in every regard, is unacceptable.

I read the quote, and expanding on a point to relate to a specific topic is taught in high-school. I don't think you understood what I meant. I get that you mean that you level faster as other classes, and that's fine and dandy, but burst and damage is not the only utility.

[Mugajak]

1) Feral stealth speed is 70% movement, with cat increasing movement speed by 25%. You'e looking at a approximately 91% movement speed in stealth. If they use their sprint, they gain 70% additional movement and increase to 154.7% movement. So, yes. With the use of a CD, a Feral moves faster than a Rogue.

You're missing the point. Mage burst is REALLY easy to counter. They get a 4 second window every 30 seconds, trinkets/CD every 2 min, to do their burst. One silence or interrupt, or even the use of trinket to escape, negates the Mage's burst. And the ability was only an example, I'm not going to take time to learn about the Rogue class in depth for a thread like this.

101% MS stealthed, assuming the 2p works the same way the talent does, and you don't take the talent (just logged on my resto druid to fix some gear up). So not 115%, I'll grant, unless I'm missing something or you take the MS increase talent.

I don't really see the magnitude of difference between disarm/stunning the rogue and interrupting/silencing/stunning the mage, when both can CC. The rogue burst is on the ShD/SmBomb timer, while 30s is a lot lot shorter.

[Lolretadin]

101% MS stealthed, assuming the 2p works the same way the talent does, and you don't take the talent (just logged on my resto druid to fix some gear up). So not 115%, I'll grant, unless I'm missing something or you take the MS increase talent.

I don't really see the magnitude of difference between disarm/stunning the rogue and interrupting/silencing/stunning the mage, when both can CC. The rogue burst is on the ShD/SmBomb timer, while 30s is a lot lot shorter.

Just fixed the mistake for Feral stealth.

It's because Rogue utility is not as reliant on damage as it is on control, whereas Mages are more reliant on damage than they are on control. There are also a lot more classes that have interrupts and silences than disarms. You also have to keep in mind that a Rogue can train a person a lot easier than a Mage can. I've played both a Ret and a Warlock in arenas at 90, and can say that Mages are really easy to get away from compared to a Rogue.

[Speaknoevil]

You're coming off as sour about s11, which based on what I've heard was pretty absurd. I did not play in s11, but it's obvious that rogues were over the top with legendaries and vial of shadows.

__

I'll tell you again though, I have lost to 0 rogue teams since the start of MoP.
__

Coming from the perspective of someone who plays multiple classes/comps [including -my- rogue] I am telling you rogues are not in a good spot compared to everyone else.

[AnarchyEU]

Indeed ferals are definitely looking good right now.

they're always fucking good, cant remember the last time feral was bad

[Strafe]

I'm not going to take time to learn about the Rogue class in depth for a thread like this.

Why are you even here then? Just trying to settle a personal vendetta from last season it seems. How could you ever possibly understand exactly what problems or advantages a class has by sitting on a forum and telling people everything is peachy? Let's put it this way; A car has no engine and cannot move, but, you say it runs great. How will you ever know it won't even start without trying to drive it? Rogues have some glaring issues in PvP at the moment. It's not the end of the world for any rogue, but, it seriously takes a lot to get anywhere. You say the class sticks to targets so easily, prove it. You'll quickly find yourself trying to connect and not being able to. All of your arguments against changes to rogues are based on your own personal beliefs without backing evidence in addition to constantly referencing a previous state in which rogues were tuned too well. No previous state of a class should ever effect a future state just to sate your desire for retribution.


This thread should have developed into logical discussion of rogue mechanics, seems that is far gone now. Go back and re-read the first post I made in this topic then try to discuss why changes like that would be bad. What advantages and disadvantages do rogues currently have? What changes need to be made? Why should changes be made? These are the things that we should be discussing.