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  1. #1

    Brewmaster: a few questions

    sup fellow monks! i rerolled brewmaster because i dont tank since wotlk so i tried to give it a shot today and really liked the fact of stacking haste.

    so here comes the questions:

    how much haste do i need? there is a cap or more=better?
    if im not mistaken i need 7.5% hit, but how much expertise? 7.5 and then go for the hardcap?
    im my rotation sometimes i feel there is a gap, i mean, sometimes i got some chi left and dunno what to do with it, should i spam blackouts, even if im already at 12sec stagger?
    Last edited by bkw; 2012-11-25 at 08:35 AM.

  2. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    sup fellow monks! i rerolled brewmaster because i dont tank since wotlk so i tried to give it a shot today and really liked the fact of stacking haste.

    so here comes the questions:

    how much haste do i need? there is a cap or more=better?
    if im not mistaken i need 7.5% hit, but how much expertise? 7.5 and then go for the hardcap?
    im my rotation sometimes i feel there is a gap, i mean, sometimes i got some chi left and dunno what to do with it, should i spam blackouts, even if im already at 12sec stagger?
    Though there's been debate on the subject, simulation shows that there's a soft cap of 13.33 energy regenerated per second, or roughly 9000 haste rating. You shouldn't need worry about that for now.

    You don't necessarily NEED hit or expertise, it's kinda up to your playstyle, but for most people who do take it they seem to get to 7.5 hit and 7.5 expertise and go up in expertise as they get more gear.

    You will find gaps in your rotation, which should be filled with Tiger Palm. If you have excess chi, pour it into Blackout Kick or Purifying Brew if your stagger DoT's getting a bit big. The longer your Shuffle buff's duration, the less you need to worry about it falling off.

    And welcome to the ranks of the best beer-chugging tanks in Azeroth!

  3. #3
    thanks!

    guess i will try to do what your guide says (which is awesome btw, helped me out a lot), and get 7.5% of both and then get a bit more by gemming it with hybrid gems of haste+expertise or just expertise.

    is there any monk addon to track tiger power, stagger timer and the stagger debuff?

    im actually really happy because is like no1 queues as tank so im getting bonuses (especially gems), so.. free gems and no waiting times between dungeons, couldnt be better.

  4. #4
    Section 15 of my guide has links to the download pages for Weakauras and Brewmaster Tao, which you can configure to do exactly what you wanted, maybe sans the timer on the shuffle buff.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    thanks!

    guess i will try to do what your guide says (which is awesome btw, helped me out a lot), and get 7.5% of both and then get a bit more by gemming it with hybrid gems of haste+expertise or just expertise.

    is there any monk addon to track tiger power, stagger timer and the stagger debuff?

    im actually really happy because is like no1 queues as tank so im getting bonuses (especially gems), so.. free gems and no waiting times between dungeons, couldnt be better.
    You will never need more than 7.5% hit/expertise. NEVER. Anyone who tells you otherwise is bad. The amount of Keg Smash parries are so low on a 6+ minute fight, it isn't worth it going for more expertise when you could put them in actual useful stats.

    Starting to get pretty tired of the "debates" and bad advice from people that haven't even cleared MsV normals. Not saying this is the case in this thread, just in general.

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  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    You will never need more than 7.5% hit/expertise. NEVER. Anyone who tells you otherwise is bad. The amount of Keg Smash parries are so low on a 6+ minute fight, it isn't worth it going for more expertise when you could put them in actual useful stats.

    Starting to get pretty tired of the "debates" and bad advice from people that haven't even cleared MsV normals. Not saying this is the case in this thread, just in general.
    That's a pretty pugnacious statement. I'd advise against it in the future.

    If you'd like to share some empirical evidence to say that the amount of attacks parried is insignificant then go ahead and prove it, but looking at numbers, it's saying an average 7.5% chance, all around, for people with only 7.5% expertise.

    Instead of coming into a thread and saying "I've killed lots of bosses, therefore I know what's best and everyone else is wrong", how about coming in and backing up your statements with evidence, not just your title from H MsV.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-11-25 at 05:53 PM.

  7. #7
    My statement even got me a whisper in game from somebody called Brewbuddy. Kind of funny because he made lots of claims about stuff, but didn't hang around for the rebuttal, and instead insulted and then logged off. Classy!

    09:48:22] [W From] [Brewbuddy]: Hey. You mind doing me a big favor?
    [09:49:14] [W From] [Brewbuddy]: Stop making bad posts about how to play a Brewmaster. There's a group of us Brews far, far better ranked than you clowns and we're tired of you bads spouting off 7.5% no mastery builds. So please, stop being bad.
    [09:49:33] [W From] [Brewbuddy]: Nice progression rofl bad.
    Why would you advise against it? Logs prove I am correct with hit/expertise. Anything more is wasted.

    Mastery - Here we go. 10/25 there will be different playstyles due to the amount of healers taken, and amount of damage coming in varies between the two sizes. Mastery is not the end all stat. Also going to add that World of Logs is also inaccurate with regards to Purifying Brew. Nowhere in the logs does it attribute how much damage you prevented when you used PB. With a full on Mastery build, you cannot PB that often so you are taking a lot more damage overall, but it is not as spikey. Might be fine in most 25 environments where you expect the healers to pick up the slack. Cannot necessarily do that in a 10 man environment.

    It would be nice to know how much damage is prevented though and really do some comparisons between haste and mastery builds. I think a lot of people would be shocked.

    Madgod - Look at logs from anyone that is 7.5% expertise. Look at the important abilities that are parried. A parried Blackout Kick still gives shuffle, so isn't relevant. Keg Smash parry is huge because you don't gain the chi, lose a little energy and of course it is on CD. I am not going to continue to do the homework for you. The evidence has already been posted in multiple threads. It is on World of Logs.

    Are you Brewbuddy? Seems pretty familiar that your rebuttal post to me about my "MsV title" and the time of the whispers coincide together. My title is irrelevant. What if I wore "the Patient" instead? Would it make my argument less valid? From a progression standpoint, 6/6H MsV, 4/6H HoF is pretty relevant. We haven't attempted ToES H yet due to wanting to finish up HoF first.
    Last edited by gynshon; 2012-11-25 at 06:21 PM.

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  8. #8
    Dreadlord
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    So you dont need to go for the hard cap of experties? just stay at 7.5% or what are oyu guys saying?

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    You will never need more than 7.5% hit/expertise. NEVER. Anyone who tells you otherwise is bad. The amount of Keg Smash parries are so low on a 6+ minute fight, it isn't worth it going for more expertise when you could put them in actual useful stats.

    Starting to get pretty tired of the "debates" and bad advice from people that haven't even cleared MsV normals. Not saying this is the case in this thread, just in general.
    yeah it was my mistake anyways, so i think i should gem expertise only if i didnt reach the cap of 7.5 right?

    dizzying haze so godly hah, loving it

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    So you dont need to go for the hard cap of experties? just stay at 7.5% or what are oyu guys saying?
    You will never need the hardcap of expertise.

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  11. #11
    Dreadlord
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    Why not? if you can explain it. And should i go for mastery or more haste?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    Madgod - Look at logs from anyone that is 7.5% expertise. Look at the important abilities that are parried. A parried Blackout Kick still gives shuffle, so isn't relevant. Keg Smash parry is huge because you don't gain the chi, lose a little energy and of course it is on CD.
    You lose a GCD and 8 energy whenever you parry a Jab, too.

    You lose a chi, 8 energy, a GCD, and the chance to use KS for another 8 seconds when it parries.

    You also lose DPS and raid utility. It's not purely about resource generation and shuffle uptime.

    It's the exact same argument as the other threads. You gain a little bit of chi generation and / or EB procs if you don't go into hit or expertise, but you lose consistency, damage, and raid utility otherwise. The choice between these two are dependent on the needs of your raid. You have literally nothing to say that people are bad for going past 7.5% expertise except your own word.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    Why not? if you can explain it. And should i go for mastery or more haste?
    World of Logs shows us the amount of Parries we receive for our hits at differing expertise levels. I think most of our logs are still private however going to type this out for you. If anyone doubts the validity, I will take a screenshot and post it.

    Heroic Wind Lord 10 man - 5:21 kill. Single tanked by me.

    Keg Smash:
    126 Hits
    54 crits
    11 parries

    Looks like a pretty high number, but in reality it isn't considering I am tanking several mobs at once for most of the fight.

    7 melee parries, 2 BoK parries, 3 Tiger Palm parries, 4 Jab parries. Over a 5 min fight where I am tanking multiple mobs for a good 4 mins of it?

    Will of the Emperor 10man Heroic - 11min fight:

    Keg Smash - 4 parries
    BoK - 2 parries
    Jab - 3 parries.

    So out of 11 mins, I miss out on 11 Chi, 2 instances of not refreshing Shuffle.

    Multiple logs all show the same thing. Insignificant amount of parries over the course of the fight that will make or break you. The stats are better put elsewhere like Haste. With regards to Mastery, I have tried an all out Mastery build and didn't like the feel of it. My healers had to heal more because I lacked resources for PB, my damage was a lot lower and when you are a 10 man pushing progression, you need all you can get from everyone, including the tanks. Haste IMHO is better.
    Last edited by gynshon; 2012-11-25 at 06:35 PM.

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  14. #14
    I find it hard to believe you have the same number of BoK parries on a fight that's almost double the duration. You've only proven one thing, and that's that RNG is random.

    The only difference between the benefit of getting the dodge cap and the parry cap is that you don't need the parry cap for guaranteed shuffle applications. In terms of everything else, it's a linear improvement until hitting 15%.

    And even if it is a "miniscule" loss, it's not like you're going to get double the loss from going into haste. It's going to be a similar "miniscule" improvement.

  15. #15
    Dreadlord
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    So in the end its upto yourself if you go for hard cap or not?

    Atm im at the hardcap and my healers thinks its hard to heal a monk tank. Tho i havent really tanked much since i only tank now when MT is gone. So im not used to the class mechanics yet and still are learning. And seeing 2 person saying two diffrent things is kinda confusing on what to do :S

    And seeing some top monk tanks thet are not going for haste. Some go for mastery but that seems wrong for me :S

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by The Madgod View Post
    I find it hard to believe you have the same number of BoK parries on a fight that's almost double the duration. You've only proven one thing, and that's that RNG is random.

    The only difference between the benefit of getting the dodge cap and the parry cap is that you don't need the parry cap for guaranteed shuffle applications. In terms of everything else, it's a linear improvement until hitting 15%.

    And even if it is a "miniscule" loss, it's not like you're going to get double the loss from going into haste. It's going to be a similar "miniscule" improvement.
    The logs are there to view. Not sure if ours are still hidden for progression purposes. If you desire the screenshot, will be happy to provide. While RNG is random (duh) it is not overblown to the point that we need that extra expertise.

    How does Haste benefit us? Answer the question fully and you might start to realize why it is a better stat point for point after 7.5% expertise.

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  17. #17
    to be honest i think that gynshon is right, master and haste provide both good benefits but relies on what are you running, 10 or 25. in 25 you can with mastery you can stagger a lot and yes, you will receive more damage but it will be in a dot form instead of a strong direct hit.

    i think going for the expertise hardcap kinda makes you not go neither of the 2 most beneficial stats which are haste or mastery. anyways i would like to hear whats the stats preference for you gynshon (i already read yours in your guide madgod :P), maybe we can get a conclusion outta there.

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by bkw View Post
    to be honest i think that gynshon is right, master and haste provide both good benefits but relies on what are you running, 10 or 25. in 25 you can with mastery you can stagger a lot and yes, you will receive more damage but it will be in a dot form instead of a strong direct hit.

    i think going for the expertise hardcap kinda makes you not go neither of the 2 most beneficial stats which are haste or mastery. anyways i would like to hear whats the stats preference for you gynshon (i already read yours in your guide madgod :P), maybe we can get a conclusion outta there.
    Agility > Hit/Exp 7.5% > Haste > Crit > Mastery This is from my own personal experience trying out builds, etc.

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  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Tatuin View Post
    So in the end its upto yourself if you go for hard cap or not?

    Atm im at the hardcap and my healers thinks its hard to heal a monk tank. Tho i havent really tanked much since i only tank now when MT is gone. So im not used to the class mechanics yet and still are learning. And seeing 2 person saying two diffrent things is kinda confusing on what to do :S

    And seeing some top monk tanks thet are not going for haste. Some go for mastery but that seems wrong for me :S
    I'd say it's more up to your raid. Haste benefits you more from a mitigational perspective (slightly higher chi per minute and more dodge via EB procs), but it has less consistency and less damage output. Hit and expertise provide consistency via ensuring more attacks - especially chi generating abilities - hit when you use them as well as provide higher damage output which also means better raid utility via your statue. If you are taking more damage than might be healthy, I'd first look at your logs and see if you could be doing better there, then switch up your stats after if your logs seem fairly decent.

    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    The logs are there to view. Not sure if ours are still hidden for progression purposes. If you desire the screenshot, will be happy to provide. While RNG is random (duh) it is not overblown to the point that we need that extra expertise.

    How does Haste benefit us? Answer the question fully and you might start to realize why it is a better stat point for point after 7.5% expertise.
    You've proven that you don't understand (or have been ignoring) what I've been saying throughout all the expertise debate threads and are merely stuck to the idea that what you say is correct. Hell even in this thread I've said what haste provides twice, including this post, and I still say your blanket statement is wrong.

    But I'll humor you. Haste provides increased energy regeneration and a higher attack speed. This translates to a higher chi generation (more energy per second --> more chi using attacks used per minute --> more chi per minute) as well as higher damage (more white hits per minute), therefore more raid utility via your statue as well, and a higher EB proc rate (more autoattacks per minute --> more chances to crit per minute --> more EB procs per minute).

    However, the damage done by the higher number of white hits doesn't compare to the damage done by your white and yellow attacks successfully hitting more often, so hit and expertise will win out in both this and the raid utility category. While you do get a higher number of chi-generating abilities per minute with haste, you also miss more chi-generating abilities per minute, and because of such, haste and hit/expertise fall relatively close to one another, though haste wins out... but not by much. Haste provides EB procs, though, which hit and expertise can't do, so it wins in that category.

    Thus, we come to the exact thing I've said so many times already:

    Haste is better if you're talking hard numbers in terms of damage taken.

    Hit and expertise are better if you're talking damage dealt, consistency, and raid utility.

    Whether one or the other is better is highly dependent on your raid... do you need more DPS? Are you taking too much damage? Are you taking too much spike damage? Is the raid taking too much damage? These are all factors in your gearing. Having a blanket statement on gearing and then saying everyone who disagrees with it is bad is hardly useful.
    Last edited by The Madgod; 2012-11-25 at 07:37 PM.

  20. #20
    Mechagnome Chuupag's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gynshon View Post
    The logs are there to view. Not sure if ours are still hidden for progression purposes. If you desire the screenshot, will be happy to provide. While RNG is random (duh) it is not overblown to the point that we need that extra expertise.

    How does Haste benefit us? Answer the question fully and you might start to realize why it is a better stat point for point after 7.5% expertise.
    I think the more important information is that point for point hit, exp, haste, and crit all provide damn near the exact same effectiveness(within a few percentage points, and who is 'top' depends more on gear than a set in stone priority) in reducing damage. They do it in different ways.

    Hit -> consistency and dps
    Exp -> consistency and dps
    Haste -> faster resources
    Crit -> dodge and dps

    They also have symbiotic relationships; more haste makes crit better, and more hit/exp makes crit better, which is why at certain points crit starts to edge out in some cases(even more so with the 2-set). So I think I said this in a diff thread recently...but the only two rules you really have to follow is

    1) Stay at or under the hit/exp caps
    2) Reforge out of Mastery

    With caveats

    1) take whatever amount of hit/exp you want to be comfortable with your misses and the dps requirements for your raid group.
    2) Mastery has its place...unless you're smart enough to know what that place is don't touch it.
    Last edited by Chuupag; 2012-11-25 at 07:37 PM.

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