1. #1

    Question Exprertise in Assassination or shadowcraft's help

    Hello everyone! Some days ago i tried to maximize my dps in Assassination spec, so i went to shadowcraft. I uploaded my char and hit the "Auto-Reforge all" function in toolbox. It said that i need to reforge almost everything into mastery, losing my expertise cap (From 2638 (7,6%) to 264), however hit cap remains needed (It's still 7,5 afterall). So the question is: should i really get rid of expertise bringing it from cap almost to zero and reforge it to mastery or shadowcraft isn't right?

  2. #2
    I notice if you click the Reforge All button twice, it will fix ur expertise stats. The site has been making me change everything to Crit and not expertise

  3. #3
    Mastery IS ahead of expertise at all points I'm aware of having been plotted for assassination. If you crave the "safety" of knowing your muts, dispatches, and ruptures always land, go ahead and cap it (expertise shouldn't be FAR behind mastery), but so long as more mastery can be had, perfect play puts more mastery ahead of the expertise cap.

  4. #4
    Thing is, expertise cap isn't achieved at the expense of mastery, it's generally at the expense of haste, crit, and hit (if overcapped) and expertise is better than those. The only way you're losing out of expertise to gain mastery is if you have very little mastery already present on your gear--in which case it's a gearing choice (or rng non-choice if your case is similar to my search for daggers), meaning you need to reforge into mastery. You should choose gear that is more expertise, or better yet, more mastery heavy.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-11-30 at 10:02 PM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Thing is, expertise cap isn't achieved at the expense of mastery, it's generally at the expense of haste, crit, and hit (if overcapped) and expertise is better than those. The only way you're losing out of expertise to gain mastery is if you have very little mastery already present on your gear--in which case it's a gearing choice (or rng non-choice if your case is similar to my search for daggers), meaning you need to reforge into mastery. You should choose gear that is more expertise, or better yet, more mastery heavy.
    If a piece does not have mastery on it and you reforge it to expertise, you are taking expertise at the expense of mastery.

    As Mugajak said, mastery is generally ahead of expertise. I would trust ShadowC. The only reforging weirdness I've experienced is when crit and haste edge out over each other and it wants me to reforge to haste and then to crit, and then to haste. Just take the one with the highest DPS and go by your character sheet for reforging, not the log on the right.

    I hope the armory (and ShadowC) gets updated soon for upgraded items. Once I start upgrading pieces with hit or expertise, it's going to take a bit more work to reforge optimally.

  6. #6
    The Patient jdfrost's Avatar
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    i been noticing that too, i knew about mastery> expertise but going from: Expertise Rating 2478 to Expertise Rating 1098 by using auto-reforge, if i hit it again i get Expertise Rating 1285

    that's a huge different for a +287.2 dps increase

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by shadowboy View Post
    Thing is, expertise cap isn't achieved at the expense of mastery, it's generally at the expense of haste, crit, and hit (if overcapped) and expertise is better than those. The only way you're losing out of expertise to gain mastery is if you have very little mastery already present on your gear--in which case it's a gearing choice (or rng non-choice if your case is similar to my search for daggers), meaning you need to reforge into mastery. You should choose gear that is more expertise, or better yet, more mastery heavy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Squirl View Post
    If a piece does not have mastery on it and you reforge it to expertise, you are taking expertise at the expense of mastery.
    Note bolded text.

    The low expertise issue as an assassination rogue is a gearing choice issue. Choose gear that has either expertise or mastery (or both) in as many slots as you can, and the expertise cap will fall right in line without losing any mastery.
    Last edited by shadowboy; 2012-12-01 at 02:15 PM.

  8. #8
    ^ Yeah, i know, but i can't still understand why shadowcraft says to COMPLETELY remove expertise, is it rather dps gain?

    Also another question. I very very very often get my attacks dodged and parried while fighting with raid mobs (same issue with thrash mobs that not 93lvl) while at expertise cap 7,6%. Sometimes see attacks parried from behind/

  9. #9
    simulation thinks you will react instantly to special attacks that dont hit your target, so i would say cap expertise anyway.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Rofos View Post
    ^ Yeah, i know, but i can't still understand why shadowcraft says to COMPLETELY remove expertise, is it rather dps gain?
    Quite simply mastery weights more than expertise, that is all.
    I doubt shadowcraft has you reforging expertise into anything else than hit if you aren't capped or mastery.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by hihu View Post
    Quite simply mastery weights more than expertise, that is all.
    I doubt shadowcraft has you reforging expertise into anything else than hit if you aren't capped or mastery.
    I'm both hit and expertise capped, as i said earlier sometimes even at expertise cap i see parries and dodges, can't imagine what fight will look like without exp... Anyway i've to try it later

  12. #12
    Thaaat shouldn't be happening.

    If you're getting parried "from the back" you're secretly facing the front, or a boss is bugged out. If you're getting dodged, either you're PvPing or you're not at the expertise soft cap.

    Could you be using a racial that only affects one hand? Wouldn't make any sense for assassination but... armory?

    Edit: I should note that, as shadowboy points out, being in the center of a boss's hitbox (variable size) plants you "in front". This is also true of cleaves and cone AoEs though, so it's pretty hard to miss when you ShS and die to a breath attack the first time.
    Last edited by Kael; 2012-12-02 at 02:42 AM.

  13. #13
    Bosses will parry even if you're behind them if you're close enough.

    Rule of thumb: Shadowstep and Killing spree will place you at the center of the hit box, and you'll be parried, take a step back after using them to ensure that doesn't happen.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Mugajak View Post
    Thaaat shouldn't be happening.

    If you're getting parried "from the back" you're secretly facing the front, or a boss is bugged out. If you're getting dodged, either you're PvPing or you're not at the expertise soft cap.

    Could you be using a racial that only affects one hand? Wouldn't make any sense for assassination but... armory?

    Edit: I should note that, as shadowboy points out, being in the center of a boss's hitbox (variable size) plants you "in front". This is also true of cleaves and cone AoEs though, so it's pretty hard to miss when you ShS and die to a breath attack the first time.
    Hm, strange. I thought my attacks couldn't be parried or dodged when i reach yellow cap, btw here is my armory. My gear isn't ok, i know but i don't visit anything expect LFR.

  15. #15
    The dodge cap is 7.5% for level 93 mooobs, barring temporary buffs, but players have their own stats.

    The parry cap for level 93 mobs is 15%, and shouldn't be fought for by anyone but DPS-conscious tanks (or BM tanks focusing on GotOx). Parries only occur from the front (or what's considered the front; dead center of a mob, or the front). Qiang should parry you unless you have special "out" to DPS from the back, else nothing should, except the occasional auto-attack on ShS.

    Might you be discussing PvP? I'd note that you personally have 15.34% chance to dodge unbuffed. 7.76% expertise means that, fighting your clone, you'd still get dodged 7.58% of the time. Expertise is about an opposed roll, not your personal stats. PvE just feels that way since the stats for enemies are normalized.

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