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  1. #1
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Melee Class for pvp? choice

    Hi, I just quit raiding because i could not organize my time with my guild raid timings and i was playing a caster for over a year now, i always played pvp and reached good rating above 1.7k with some classes but i never focused on pvp.

    Now i want to focus on pure pvp playing and i know the state of melees before patch 5.1 ( rogues having low damage and being squishy, warr god mode....etc)

    Can someone recommend me a class that can be both good for rbgs and arena (primarily 3v3), i dont care if it has a high skill cap as long.
    I was thinking of feral druid ,unholy dk's (frost is lame) or Enhancement shammys

    I played all before pandaria have knowledge on how to play them, i jsut want a class that i can focus on and can reach 2k+.

    How i like my classes in this game:
    - no 2-3 ability class
    - utility
    - not squishy
    - steady single target pressure and damage output

    Not WArrs, not warrs( harry potter hat moment ?)
    Sorry for the long post thank you for your help

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk ParanoiD84's Avatar
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    All 3 is good now when the nerfs rolled out on other classes. If i would pick one i would go with either Feral or Enhancement, both have good burst every 3min and both have ok substained damage outside off cd's. They are pretty even when it comes to selfheals and defensives.

    Dk's need some fixes when it comes to defensive cd's and some crowd controll, they have the best substained damage though but lack in other areas atm. I would pick feral they have some cool utility and good burst damage and also good cc (cyclone) although you will use free procs far more on self heals then instand cyclones.
    Last edited by ParanoiD84; 2012-11-30 at 11:14 AM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by kidace View Post
    unholy dk's (frost is lame)
    Um...... what?

    Since when is massive burst damage on an easy to learn class in plate armor with a 50% hp self heal, temporary magic dmg immunity, and death grip+chains of ice "lame"? Are you insane?

    Frost DK is imo the single most effective melee in PVP, you can try to run from one but it's the most difficult melee to actually escape due to death grip and chains of ice, even harder w/ chillbains and remorseless winter. The burst dmg is very high, the survivability is probably the 2nd highest of any melee dps (I'll admit arms warriors and their damn 2nd wind gives them great survivability)
    Last edited by WaitingforMoP; 2012-11-30 at 11:16 AM.

  4. #4
    i'd say feral is a good spec all-around, no glaring weak points and quite balanced.
    shamans are upset about the totem nerf, don't play one however so it could be overreacting, i don't know.

  5. #5
    Enh Shammy seems to fit your needs the most. Dont know how viable it is in high rated arenas tho.

  6. #6
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    I ment the play style, some people like to see pretty numbers but i love it when i enjoy playing the class and using the different spells in my arsenal.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by kidace View Post
    I ment the play style, some people like to see pretty numbers but i love it when i enjoy playing the class and using the different spells in my arsenal.
    If the issue is that you think you're too cool to play a 3 or 4 button class, then go arms warrior because they have about 8405702847502874508749999999999 buttons to keep up with........

  8. #8
    Pandaren Monk ParanoiD84's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dsm View Post
    Enh Shammy seems to fit your needs the most. Dont know how viable it is in high rated arenas tho.
    Played right they are really good, nice cd's with purge and totems good substained damage and with damn good burst every 3min.

  9. #9
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingforMoP View Post
    If the issue is that you think you're too cool to play a 3 or 4 button class, then go arms warrior because they have about 8405702847502874508749999999999 buttons to keep up with........
    i dont know if i am offending you, if yes i am sorry. I am saying we have different play styles, i have played frost dk and unholy dk's. I love the mechanics of unholy dkays

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 11:35 AM ----------

    Any other opinions ??

  10. #10
    Feral druids are one of the strongest melee classes at the moment. Some say that they might actually be top of the food chain in terms of melee DPS right now since Warriors got knocked down a peg. Feral druids aren't especially good at RBGs from what I have seen, they don't bring much utility for killing a flag carrier or massive AoE damage.

    Enhancement shamans are one of my favorite melee classes because of the nice mix of spell damage, self heal, utility, and burst. When I was on the PTR I found Enhancement to be pretty squishy (but then again, all I did was duel.) Enhancement is very undesirable to take in an RBG team because they bring almost no flag carrier killing utility. They are solid in arena because they mesh well as a supportive DPS. Freedom totem, grounding totem, tremor totem, instant heals, instant hex, and good burst make them a solid pick for some team comps.

    Unholy DKs are fun too. I don't know how they stand or if they're still the preferred DK arena spec now. DKs right now are pretty susceptible against melee teams in arena. Frost DKs are the most desirable target caller in Rated Battlegrounds too, so if you do make an Unholy spec you have the option open.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by kidace View Post
    How i like my classes in this game:
    - no 2-3 ability class
    - Utility
    - not squishy
    - steady single target pressure and damage output

    Sorry for the long post thank you for your help
    Okay, here goes, i've included a scale with each class to help you decide:

    Enhancement
    Literally 2-3 abilities, but good utilities (grounding, tremor, wind shear) and not very squishy. Somewhat good pressure and damage but relying quite heavily on Ascendance burst.

    Number of Abilities - 1
    Amount of Utility - 5
    Survivability - 3
    Damage / Burst - 2 / 5


    Unholy DK
    A -lot- of buttons and spells. Can put out quite a lot of pressure if played correctly and has some fun utilities (AMS, AMZ(?), lichborne, death grip, strangulate, interrupt), fairly squishy outside of CDs though and that's probably their biggest downfall right now. Burst damage is non-existant.

    Number of Abilities - 5
    Amount of Utility - 4
    Survivability - 2
    Damage / Burst - 2 / 2


    Feral Druid
    Having played Feral Druid myself for 2-3 seasons I know them quite well, and they are still pretty entertaining for me. (I played Enh for a week and DK for a month or so before getting bored). Druid has some pretty decent pressure and amazing burst right now. There is a healthy amount of spells (and not too many) a lot of CC/Utility to boot. Using Roots, Hibernates, Clones or using your procs for healing is a constant decision while putting out a fairly complex rotation (in comparison to enh). They have 2 pretty good survivability spells which are on somewhat low CDs, so it's more a decision about using them to take less damage to give you time to LoS / stop incoming damage than pressing it and not taking any damage at all.

    Number of Abilities - 3
    Amount of Utility - 4
    Survivability - 3
    Damage / Burst - 3 / 5


    Ret Paladin
    You missed out this from your list of melee so I don't know if you're interested, but Ret is performing alright at the moment. It's not as good as Warr/Feral but it's up there with DK & Enh. Ret is pretty easy but you can always tell a good ret from a bad ret. Not many buttons, but good damage outside of CDs and a nice amount of burst (which is undispellable now). Has a fairly large amount of utility if used right, as ret can use many of its cooldowns either offensively or defensively. (Bubble, HoP, Freedom, WoG vs TV, Sacrifice, Blind, Rebuke, Repentance). The only issue is survivability outside of bubble is pretty non-existent and ret relies mostly on the ability to heal itself after taking damage, which doesn't fit well in the current playstyle of game (kill stuff in a stun).

    Number of Abilities - 2
    Amount of Utility - 4
    Survivability - 1
    Damage / Burst - 2 / 4


    ---

    Out of all of them, i'd recommend Feral. There is a lot of Ferals out there who have made some good videos and the rotation is fairly easy once you get the hang of it and understand it. The playstyle is good fun and you very much react to what is happening around you. Some classes don't really change no matter what (lol im a warr tunnel 1 target), but if your healer gets CC'd you'll probably want to swap Bear Form just to lower some of the incoming damage - rather than what most classes would do which is eat all of the damage and THEN pop a cooldown which means they can't die (Iceblock, Shield wall, disperse, bubble, etc).

    Plus, Feral is very viable atm and has a multitude of available comps (in order of best to worst atm):
    Feral / Warrior / X - Bleedcleave
    Feral / Mage / X - FM (S/P/D)
    Feral / Lock / X - FL (S/P/D)
    Feral / DK / X - Ebola Cleave
    Feral / Hunter / X - Junglecleave
    Feral / Ret / X
    Feral / Spriest / X
    Last edited by Snuggli; 2012-11-30 at 12:38 PM.

  12. #12
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    ^

    iWolfBanei did a really good write-up here, beyond that I can't really contribute to the process without knowing more about you. Literally all of those options are solid right now. For what it's worth, Feral and Frost DKs are the most popular of those choices right now - but that could easily change by the time you level and gear up.

    Two things that might help further narrow it down though for you, is

    (1) telling us what you primarily plan to do it with (2v2, 3v3, 5v5, 10v10, casual bgs, world pvp, etc), and
    (2) telling us what your level of skill is (and/or, how far you realistically intend to take this new main).

    (1) For example, if you said you only really care about RBGs and Arenas - I'd likely recommend the DK or Druid because they have valuable spots on RBG teams - and are both very arena viable. If you plan to world pvp, the Feral gets additional points for stealth. If you are going to be mostly running Arenas and playing with your friends mains - and your friend plays a Warrior (as example) I'd say the Enhancement or Ret.

    (2) What your past pvp level was can also matter (and what class you achieved it on). This is due to a differing skill cap and skill curve for each of these classes. For example, Enhancement has a very tough introductory skill curve - it's very unforgiving - but it also boasts probably the highest skill cap of the lot - if you master enhancement your a threat to just about any spec in the game at any skill level (nothing hard counters an enh shaman, but playing enh flawlessly is Extremely challenging).

    Ret and Feral have easier introductory skill curves - and that matters because if all you are going to do is run casual battlegrounds and world pvp - you don't need to study and practice and fail and fail and practice to learn either spec to succeed in those environments - but Ret-support (to distinguish it from Ret-DPS of past expansions) is - like Enhancement but for different reasons - very challenging to master: if all you want to do is pop wings and smash face though - you can do that on Day 1 of being a Ret. Feral skill curve is sharper than rets, but their cap is arguably actually lower than Ret-Support.

    It matters if you plan to play arenas at 2500+ or just arenas at 1800+, because that determines how far up the skill curve you are going to need to climb (in reality, and at least statistically speaking - you probably won't reach the skill cap no matter which spec you pick: which may put a damper on Enhancement, for example - unless you like knowing you always have room to improve, or really like that Shaman swagger).

    Unholy DKs are hard to explain - getting fluent with their massive number of used abilities is challenging, but unholy gameplay in Arenas or RBGs is less challenging than any of the above (I'm sure DKs will flame me now for that). The reason is that DKs aren't really a support DPS class in the same theme of the other choices. Its probably easiest to explain this using other genres - if you are familiar with LoL - DKs are like Morgana or Lux - they aren't Support the way Soraka or Lulu are. But Morgana and Lux are Support - the difference is I guess, a DK (or Morgana or Lux) set up kills for their team - but they don't really provides buffs or longevity or heals. Nevertheless, a DK + Warrior (ie. TSG) can do serious work together by combining purges (Icy Touch) + Snares (Chillblains) + Necrotic Stacks as prelude to Warrior burst damage. Which to go back to the LoL example, is like Morgana+Sivir - Morgana sets up the opponent with roots and snares and stuns, allowing Sivir to skillshot massive damage with ease - but that's very distinct from say, Soraka+Sivir where you are feeding Sivir mana/health/buffs, and silencing opponents during Sivirs burst (which is how Ret-Support and Feral play out). DKs are entirely capable of being a full DPS class (but particularly Frost DKs right now) - just as Morgana or Lux can AP stack and be a full-fledged Mage.

    Ok sorry for the essays and non-wow analogies, but tell us what type of pvp you play, what teammates you are likely to play with (if you know), and how far you realistically plan to get - and I can probably give you an almost definitive answer on what you would enjoy most for that purpose.
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  13. #13
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    very nice analysis from both iWolfBanei and Yvaelle. Your posts really helped me alot.


    in the first post i said that i just quit pve and i used to play pvp when i was not busy raiding ( which took up alot of free time). Now that I quit i want to spend my time learning how to become a good pvp player. I played almost every class in pvp and i know how to play each but i haven't mastered any of them.

    SO i want to choose a pvp main because iam a person that only sticks to one class, i played my mage in pve for the last year without even raiding with another character. All of the the classes you mentioned are viable for me.

    I dont care about the learning curve to be honest, i just want a character that has some fun dynamics and isnt just plain smash the same two buttons in the entire rbg or arena .

    As for ratings, since the season is'nt yet i am hoping to reach 2k rating in arena and 2.2k rbg for this patch. I do plenty of research and i spent a considerable amount of time practicing or training so learning the class isnt much a problem for me. my only problem is choosing which class to play.

    These are my final 3 questions: i hope you guys can answer and i want you to think of all the melee classes even warrs and palas

    - Which class can be viable in many different comps?

    - Can be played for a long period of time ? ( I mean, for example. at the end of cata the guild stoped raiding and i geared up my rogue and i really enjoyed doing arenas and rngs with my rogue but not it is considered as one of the least represented classes in rbgs and arena. SO what i mean is that, a class that is always balanced ( not too op and not too weak).) So if i choose the class, i want to play it for many patches in the future.

    -Which class is most helpful in arenas and rbgs?

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by WaitingforMoP View Post
    Um...... what?

    Since when is massive burst damage on an easy to learn class in plate armor with a 50% hp self heal, temporary magic dmg immunity, and death grip+chains of ice "lame"? Are you insane?

    Frost DK is imo the single most effective melee in PVP, you can try to run from one but it's the most difficult melee to actually escape due to death grip and chains of ice, even harder w/ chillbains and remorseless winter. The burst dmg is very high, the survivability is probably the 2nd highest of any melee dps (I'll admit arms warriors and their damn 2nd wind gives them great survivability)
    Frost DK's have amazing damage but they got terrible survivability and CC. Unfortunately Unholy is terrible right now so don't even consider it.
    Last edited by Senathor; 2012-11-30 at 02:58 PM.

  15. #15
    Since you already crossed warrior off the list, I'd say feral personally, if you don't mind being an animal. Most melee are rather simple to play compared to ranged classes (not easier, but more direct) with the exception of rogues and ferals. Rogues aren't worth much at the moment, but ferals are quite good in any setting. And yes, ignore whoever said death knights are the strongest melee. They aren't even close.

  16. #16
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Itisamuh View Post
    Since you already crossed warrior off the list, I'd say feral personally, if you don't mind being an animal. Most melee are rather simple to play compared to ranged classes (not easier, but more direct) with the exception of rogues and ferals. Rogues aren't worth much at the moment, but ferals are quite good in any setting. And yes, ignore whoever said death knights are the strongest melee. They aren't even close.
    lets just say i picked feral, and i trained and mastered it. what is hte standing of the class in rbgs and 3v3 relative to warriors and other melees and if i go rbgs am i forced to be a gaurdian specced FC or feral?? I don't see how ferals can be helpful in rbg , can you please explain ?

  17. #17
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Thanks for the additional info

    I'd say probably a DK or a Feral is what you would enjoy most given the above. Rets and Enhancement can have trouble finding RBG spots - there is a big emphasis on class stacking in RBGs, and anything that isn't capable of topping damage, or burst, or healing is often ignored - despite that the hybrid specs give a lot more benefit than damage alone (it's much harder to measure whether a ret or enh is doing their job well in an RBG team than to measure whether a DK (top damage) or a warrior or lock is (top killing blows). So if you plan to get to 2.2k - it will be easier to find a group at least if you are a DK or Feral.

    All of the specs you are interested in are well capable of 2.2k in both arenas and RBGs, so there is no real limiting factor there. With that said, I'm coming back to the DK/Feral thing again - while Unholy is just overall weaker than Frost - Unholy isn't bad either. Enhancement is somewhat limited in what comps they can play - fortunately for them - some of their best comps are with warriors and hunters who are both very strong right now.

    Rets and DKs have the largest comp diversity in Arenas of the lot. Ferals and DKs are probably the easiest ride to 2k2 though - some of their comps don't take a ton of coordination, but do so much damage so early in the match that they kill less-prepared teams - those same comps struggle above 2k2 - but if that's your goal, thats not a worry

    So ya, probably give feral or DK a try - you can play any of them if you find one you have a preference for - but we can probably narrow the most logical choices down to one of those two
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  18. #18
    Mechagnome a C e's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    Thanks for the additional info

    I'd say probably a DK or a Feral is what you would enjoy most given the above. Rets and Enhancement can have trouble finding RBG spots - there is a big emphasis on class stacking in RBGs, and anything that isn't capable of topping damage, or burst, or healing is often ignored - despite that the hybrid specs give a lot more benefit than damage alone (it's much harder to measure whether a ret or enh is doing their job well in an RBG team than to measure whether a DK (top damage) or a warrior or lock is (top killing blows). So if you plan to get to 2.2k - it will be easier to find a group at least if you are a DK or Feral.

    All of the specs you are interested in are well capable of 2.2k in both arenas and RBGs, so there is no real limiting factor there. With that said, I'm coming back to the DK/Feral thing again - while Unholy is just overall weaker than Frost - Unholy isn't bad either. Enhancement is somewhat limited in what comps they can play - fortunately for them - some of their best comps are with warriors and hunters who are both very strong right now.

    Rets and DKs have the largest comp diversity in Arenas of the lot. Ferals and DKs are probably the easiest ride to 2k2 though - some of their comps don't take a ton of coordination, but do so much damage so early in the match that they kill less-prepared teams - those same comps struggle above 2k2 - but if that's your goal, thats not a worry

    So ya, probably give feral or DK a try - you can play any of them if you find one you have a preference for - but we can probably narrow the most logical choices down to one of those two
    thank you mate, i dont know how i could have choosen my pvp main without you. So far i am leaning towards ferals but i really want to play unholy dk because i feel the the unholy spec is fun in the sense of mico managing and fast attacks.

    Do you think that unholy will be better soon ?

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by kidace View Post
    thank you mate, i dont know how i could have choosen my pvp main without you. So far i am leaning towards ferals but i really want to play unholy dk because i feel the the unholy spec is fun in the sense of mico managing and fast attacks.

    Do you think that unholy will be better soon ?
    They didnt get much help in 5.1, so they won't be as good as other classes until atleast 5.2. Ferals have always been somewhat viable since the end of Wrath and they have so many good comps you can play.

    Ferals are a good support class and hey, even if it gets nerfed you can just swap out to Resto or Boomkin. The only thing I would note is that Unholy DK is very much a spec that relies HEAVILY on healing and help from other classes, Feral performs way better in 1v1, 1v2, 2v2, 2v3 situations and probably always will.

  20. #20
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by kidace View Post
    thank you mate, i dont know how i could have choosen my pvp main without you. So far i am leaning towards ferals but i really want to play unholy dk because i feel the the unholy spec is fun in the sense of mico managing and fast attacks.

    Do you think that unholy will be better soon ?
    You won't see Unholy Buffs anytime soon - the reason is that both Unholy and Frost are both a little too strong right now. The reason people play frost though is because Unholy takes more micro and macro management and has a non-trivial ramp-up time before it can burst.

    Frost takes no micro or macro management and has no ramp up time - so the result is that Frost does about the same pressure without ramp-up and does the same or slightly more burst with no ramp-up at all - while Unholy is limited by both. I think they are comfortable with the Unholy design though overall (for the same reason that you are attracted to it). So more likely, you may see a Frost nerf at some point that will make Unholy more popular when it isn't such an obvious choice. For those reasons though I'm not actually telling you not to play Unholy if you really want to - because it's not a bad spec by any means, and if anything is a little too good at the moment (as is frost).

    Edit: Also, I agree with everything iWolfbanei just said about Feral
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