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  1. #1

    [WW] Windwalker monk unprogressable class?

    so this week i was sat out for our first HM gara kill (a bit behind the curb but still a hard encounter)(un able to post links Serendepityz-stormrage if you wanna take the time) i was sat out this week for a casual F DK in the guild that was out performing me (Cenergy-Stormrage) afer new dk is brought in they got it down within 1hr we had put in 3hours the previous day with me with MANY 15Mish enrage wipes. is it im a bad player? possibly a gear issue (notable the weapons). or just the class is behind that of all other melle? is a class switch what i need to be able to progress with my guild? or do i just need to get my head out of my ass and pull better numbers? was doing around 84k on HM gara attempts recently switched from a haste stack to a crit stack seeming to pull better for me. raid comp is HEALERS: Hpally Rshammy Disc/holy Priest TANKS: Prot pally Prot Warrior DPS: Ranged: Fire mage Boomkin Hunter Warlock Melle: me. any tips of what i should do? either to up my dps or should i switch class and reroll dk/warrior dps? lol no logs really available

  2. #2
    Legendary! Treelife's Avatar
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    Links -
    You: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...pityz/advanced
    DK: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/characte...nergy/advanced
    Guild Logs: http://www.worldoflogs.com/guilds/225236/

    Looks like your DPS is a low for your gear level having looked at a few kills. You actually have better gear than him overall, besides the weapons as you mentioned.
    Last edited by Treelife; 2012-11-30 at 04:09 AM.

  3. #3
    See: Item level of weapon

    Idk how you could overlook the huge difference in the ilvl of your weps, but that is what is causing the gap.

  4. #4
    Brewmaster Buxton McGraff's Avatar
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    I'm finding myself constantly at the top of the meters. I'm only in 484 ilvl gear and I'm actually ranking on some fights. I have no trouble beating range.
    I suggest reading up on some guides

  5. #5
    The problem isn't the Windwalker spec. It's your weapons. With as much going on in LFR and normal mode raids (I'm assuming you're 16/16N if you're killing H Gara'jal), you should not have those weapons equipped. Find anything else. Those aren't even your best options from 5-man heroics. Take staves, polearms, anything you need to gain weapon ilevel.
    Quote Originally Posted by roahn the warlock View Post
    when I go to the carnival and drop 5 bucks on a -game- I don't bitch when I don't win the stuffed bear

  6. #6
    1) Armory: You seem confused. You're reforging away from haste into Crit, but gem for Haste in your orange sockets, why? Sim your gear, get your stat weights, no reason to be confused about Crit and Haste. Also, double Windsong is not as good as double Dancing Steel. While expensive, that is contributing to your lack of DPS. As a small side note, Lifeblood from Herbalism is one of the worst profession bonuses you can get. Lacking that extra 320 agility is probably hurting you.

    2) Logs: Y U NO FISTS OF FURY? As of 5.1, Fists of Fury is now completely fixed and scales with haste, making it a core part of our priority now. Not using it whatsoever is so three days ago. On your recent Feng kill, your Tiger Power only had a 73% uptime, what's with that? Seemed fine on most fights, but failing to have that over 95% uptime will seriously hurt your DPS. On the plus side, you're using ToK for damage, which is more than some people do.

    3) Windwalker in general: Before 5.1, there were serious issues impacting performance (FoF bug, not being able to use Ascension), but now we're actually pretty well off. Your DPS can go up 5-10% through better Tiger Power management and actually using Fists of Fury, and another 5-10% from proper stat priority and enchants. Aside from that though, your weapons are just abysmal. There's not much you can do about that, but if you improve the other areas it won't seem as bad.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    2) Logs: Y U NO FISTS OF FURY? As of 5.1, Fists of Fury is now completely fixed and scales with haste, making it a core part of our priority now. Not using it whatsoever is so three days ago.
    Not really. Fists of Fury is a DPS increase in optimal situation but it's not that easy to use and make it a DPS increase. Simming my character with latest SimC says it's 3k DPS increase (from 88k to 85k) to use FoF. In reality however, that 3k disappears immediately if you delay RSK, cap your energy, let TP drop (yes, even after 5.1), delay EB, have to move or the boss moves. Considering all this is by no means in your hands, for example the boss could move because the tank repositions or turns for whatever reason, then all the effort of trying to find the perfect moments to use FoF are now down to drain. I can't consistently make rotation with FoF a DPS increase over non-FoF rotation even on dummies personally, and this comes from a main spec WW who consistently gets ranked on WoL.

    Now if you were suggesting using FoF for some WW Monk in Method or Paragon, I'd say it's probably a good idea and they should be able to judge when to and when not to use it to squeeze that tiny bit of extra DPS. But for someone who doesn't even main spec WW in raids, I'd safely say just take FoF out of your toolbars and your head, your DPS will very likely increase.

  8. #8
    Stood in the Fire Snarfysnarf's Avatar
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    If you don't use fists of fury you are playing incorrectly, you can make excuses and point to the outdated simcraft all you want. The monk community doesn't need any more bad players encouraging others to ignore fists of fury, it's a DPS increase and you should learn how to use it.
    Last edited by Snarfysnarf; 2012-11-30 at 06:57 AM.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Snarfysnarf View Post
    If you don't use fists of fury you are playing incorrectly, you can make excuses and point to the outdated simcraft all you want.
    Point the outdatedness of SimC then instead of just saying so. Their latest client is completely up to date with current version of the game. Sure it may have bugs that aren't in the game, or the game might have bugs that aren't in SimC as usual, but saying so proves absolutely nothing.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    Not really. Fists of Fury is a DPS increase in optimal situation but it's not that easy to use and make it a DPS increase. Simming my character with latest SimC says it's 3k DPS increase (from 88k to 85k) to use FoF. In reality however, that 3k disappears immediately if you delay RSK, cap your energy, let TP drop (yes, even after 5.1), delay EB, have to move or the boss moves. Considering all this is by no means in your hands, for example the boss could move because the tank repositions or turns for whatever reason, then all the effort of trying to find the perfect moments to use FoF are now down to drain. I can't consistently make rotation with FoF a DPS increase over non-FoF rotation even on dummies personally, and this comes from a main spec WW who consistently gets ranked on WoL.

    Now if you were suggesting using FoF for some WW Monk in Method or Paragon, I'd say it's probably a good idea and they should be able to judge when to and when not to use it to squeeze that tiny bit of extra DPS. But for someone who doesn't even main spec WW in raids, I'd safely say just take FoF out of your toolbars and your head, your DPS will very likely increase.
    With Ascension and FoF being fixed, using FoF is much, MUCH easier now. Ascension gives so much energy that we can't even spend it all, you can't even use EB on cooldown anymore. Delaying EB and wasting energy are both out of the equation now as we simply don't have enough GCDs to use all that energy. All it falls to now is not wasting RSK cooldown time and not letting TP fall off.

    As I said, it is not all that much of a damage increase (although it is quite a bit more if your sim didn't include the 2p bonus), but it is comparable to not using Dancing Steel. It's not difficult to use anymore, and simply leaving it out now is just being ignorant.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    With Ascension and FoF being fixed, using FoF is much, MUCH easier now. Ascension gives so much energy that we can't even spend it all, you can't even use EB on cooldown anymore. Delaying EB and wasting energy are both out of the equation now as we simply don't have enough GCDs to use all that energy.
    Not exactly sure what you're trying to say here. I don't know about you, but at little over 5000 haste and with Ascension, I still have downtime when I need to use EB and between EBs, I have time when I need to wait for energy. But that's the optimal place to use FoF, if everything else allows it. If you're capping energy anyways, then I think it's time to reforge crit regardless of FoF usage. Sorry if I misunderstood, but it sounded a bit silly.

    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    As I said, it is not all that much of a damage increase (although it is quite a bit more if your sim didn't include the 2p bonus), but it is comparable to not using Dancing Steel. It's not difficult to use anymore, and simply leaving it out now is just being ignorant.
    True, my sim did not include 2p. But even against dummy, are you really saying you can use FoF on cooldown without it being a DPS loss? I find that highly unprobable, even more so in real raiding situation.

    Also, as far as I'm concerned, I don't think it as ignorant. As I said in my post, using it optimally is DPS increase, I was merely arguing that 99% of the playerbase cannot use it to increase their DPS. The reasons vary, some people just can't get DPS increase on dummies because of lag/player skill/whatever, some people are in guilds where tanks might not always stay put when it'd be optimal, some people only run LFR where tanks do whatever they wish etc. There's just so many "if"s that if you're using it optimally and increasing your DPS with it, consider yourself lucky and a very good player.
    Last edited by Illitti; 2012-11-30 at 07:33 AM.

  12. #12
    Don't worry too much, frost Dk's are currently broken/bugged somehow, After patch 5.1 released my frost dk's damage went up by at least 15k without any alteration to gear or gameplay style.

  13. #13
    Dreadlord Kyuubi87's Avatar
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    Weapons appear to be the most important upgrade for a WW Monk, apart from a significant difference in gear between me and another WW Monk in my guild - he also got 2 Heroic fist weapons, whilst I have normal weapon and it makes a noticeable difference.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Illitti View Post
    But even against dummy, are you really saying you can use FoF on cooldown without it being a DPS loss? I find that highly unprobable, even more so in real raiding situation.
    I didn't see anything like that in his post?
    He was calling out a player for not using it at all. Don't use it on CD, but using it never is just as bad.

  15. #15
    Epic! schwank05's Avatar
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    I am a Ret Pally, I have been struggling to keep up with the other Melee in our raids for weeks. Of coarse Rogues get weapons off the first 2 bosses and monks of the 3rd and 4th. Me stuck unable to Kill Elegon atm, was sitting with the 463 I got the first day of being 90. I was a good 15-18K behind the Monk and Rogue in our runs. I got a Starshatter from LFR closed the gap to 5K behind. Got Lucky on my first Sha kill and got the Axe, and Bam I was suddenly the 1-2 highest DPS on most fights only ever losing to our Boomkin who out-gears me. As Melee Weapon damage is the best thing you can possibly get, so whatever you have to do get more ASAP.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Totaltotemic View Post
    1) Armory: You seem confused. You're reforging away from haste into Crit, but gem for Haste in your orange sockets, why? Sim your gear, get your stat weights, no reason to be confused about Crit and Haste. Also, double Windsong is not as good as double Dancing Steel. While expensive, that is contributing to your lack of DPS. As a small side note, Lifeblood from Herbalism is one of the worst profession bonuses you can get. Lacking that extra 320 agility is probably hurting you.

    2) Logs: Y U NO FISTS OF FURY? As of 5.1, Fists of Fury is now completely fixed and scales with haste, making it a core part of our priority now. Not using it whatsoever is so three days ago. On your recent Feng kill, your Tiger Power only had a 73% uptime, what's with that? Seemed fine on most fights, but failing to have that over 95% uptime will seriously hurt your DPS. On the plus side, you're using ToK for damage, which is more than some people do.

    3) Windwalker in general: Before 5.1, there were serious issues impacting performance (FoF bug, not being able to use Ascension), but now we're actually pretty well off. Your DPS can go up 5-10% through better Tiger Power management and actually using Fists of Fury, and another 5-10% from proper stat priority and enchants. Aside from that though, your weapons are just abysmal. There's not much you can do about that, but if you improve the other areas it won't seem as bad.
    Plan to level up leatherworking after i get my skinner to lvl 90 to replace herbalism as far as dancing steel goes.. i thought i would have replaced these weapons LONG ago and would then follow right into throwing dancing steel on em. the crit haste is as 5.1 hit i switched from haste to crit just feeling it was better probably switching back soon. and tbh dunno what happened with my tiger power issue. might have been a epicenter problem? but even that isnt a 27% of the fight type thing dunno if it would still show up but i died during a epicenter from just poor timing and no CD ready, and FoF tbh i had given up with at some point in MSV normal progression just because i always ended up having issues with movement/energy capping/tiger power/RSK will also fix that

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Imnick View Post
    I didn't see anything like that in his post?
    He was calling out a player for not using it at all. Don't use it on CD, but using it never is just as bad.
    I said that because the topic was about 2p. If you're not using FoF on CD (or at least 5 seconds after the cooldown has finished), 2p bonus is entirely useless. That's why I called it out, because most of players who do use FoF and are getting DPS increase from it are definitely not using it on cooldown, but rather when "stars align" so to speak.

  18. #18
    The Patient
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    FoF is only good if you can guarantee you won't be moving for those ~4 seconds which in most Heroic/Normal raids doesn't happen very often.
    Tophh formerly of Bloodhoof, now of Spirestone.

  19. #19
    I ranked #2 Windwalker on a couple of fights this week in which I geared Crit > Haste and I barely hit Fists of Fury at all. I used it only once in one fight, maybe 3 times on the other.

    Adding Fists of Fury to your rotation or changing your reforges will not make a 10-20k DPS difference like someone said. Those factors only affect small min maxing differences that nobody fully agrees upon.

    Players who stack haste can get top parses. Players who stack crit can get top parses. Players who use FoF on cooldown in spite of energy capping can get top parses. People who ignore FoF completely can get top parses.

    Your biggest problem is your weapons. Weapons are huge for Windwalkers. Factor in the Dancing Steel enchants that you're not using (presumably since you can't afford to enchant blue weapons) and those will keep you a fair bit behind.

    I can't tell from the armory but make sure you grind out the Justice Points to upgrade both your blue weapons.

  20. #20
    Well said Moozhe.

    I have 9 ranks, 5 in the top 40 and a #2 rank. I only use FoF on adds to stun stuff, never on bosses.

    I'm not saying that's optimal, but I hate the spell. It has way less impact on a fight than a lot of you are making it out.

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