Okay. Just some random thoughts of tonights math calculations.

I have been thinking about starting posting some threads about some harder paladin tank issues and harder choices in gear/stats/talents and this is my first post about this. There are so many misconceptions about how rotation, stats and talents interact which eachother. All and all paladin tanks are very complex at the moment and there are so many different ways to go around. This is a very basic post covering the most important aspects of how SW and haste/exp interracts. There are more smaller aspects which I do not cover all here. This is simply an explanation why I am not expertise capped myself.

Anyone interested in the maths and a more in depth reasoning behind this, feel free to PM me. I tried to keep it simple here

Usually getting alot of questions why I am not expertise hard capped. One of the reasons I will cover here.

I have previously done alot of math myself earlier on in this expansion about which stats to go for etc. One of the things I found out was that for me personally, the hit > soft cap exp > haste > hard cap exp > mastery worked out the best in contrary to the popular hard cap exp before haste/mastery. Not saying hard capping expertise is bad, just saying I preferred haste over it. This was something that I backed up very solidly with my own math. Basically as many people forget that Judgement is not affected by expertise after soft cap. One thing I did very poorly though, is recalculate this as I gained more item level and therefore more gear. Though this is not the point of this post.

I was reading a bit on MainTankadin, specifically in this thread

http://maintankadin.failsafedesign.c...hp?f=4&t=33211

and got a bit intrigued about where the arguments and thecks math led.

Especially reading the last page.

Basically they did the exact same math that I did myself earlier in this expansion, however, this made me recalculate using my own current raid buffed stats.

Sitting on 32.8% melee haste and 9.26 expertise. I plotted the values.

Extremely long story short.

Expertise increases my HoPo regen by 0.001383203 per rating and haste by 0.001266153.

Now, I have not been exactly mathematically correct with all the roundings etc so expect a small margin of error.

This would cause my current stat priority to be a bad one if you take into consideration only the HoPo regen part.

Will leave out the other effects of Haste + Expertise for now and only focus on the HoPo.

However, I am a vivid user of SW. I use it on almost every fight with very few exceptions. What is important though is how SW interracts with the HoPo regen of haste and expertise.

Ever since MoP released and doing extensive tests on all talents, I found that I very much prefered SW over HA. This is my personal choice and why I have made this choice, I am not going to argue about in this thread. Though it could very well be the topic of another thread. The rest of this thread will however shed some insight on it for those with a good ability to connect the dots. Generally, I just feel SW is alot stronger and has more uses, and really IMO hard stacking haste greatly increases the value of SW over other talents. But hey, now I derailed, lets get back on topic.

I am not going to bore people with a lot math here. Simply put it I am going to show the graph of how much HoPo each point of stat gives me at my current values of 32.8% haste and 9.26 expertise with consideration of SW uptime.

Basically, what you see here is the increase of HoPo per point of the stat on the Y axis and how it scales with the uptime of SW, which would be the x-axis.

Ymin = 0

Ymax = 0.002

Xmin = 0

Xmax = 1 ( 100% uptime to show how each stat scales during SW )

Red graph = Expertise

Blue graph = Haste

Now also remember that these stats are with my EXTREMELY haste stacked values and low stacked expertise, so for anyone else who probably have less haste, haste would be even more favored.

Basically, because the rotation changes from CS>J to J>CS during SW with SW talent, the value of expertise and haste greatly changes.

For me at 32.8% haste and 9.26 expertise, as long as I got over 16% uptime on SW, haste will be better even at my rating for pure HP regen.

Any fight with tank switches ( alot of them ) or any fight with phases with alot of damage going out will also favor haste even more as the uptime of HW got skewered. Naturally SW is used when you have alot of vengeance + is taking alot of damage a.k.a. when your tanking or when your expecting a big chunk of physical damage incoming like the titan gas phase on WotE.

Now, the uptime of SW is greatly dependant on the duration of the fight.

During this weeks kill of Feng Heroic ( one of the simplest tank and spank fights ).

I had an uptime of 18.6% which favors haste. Though, this tank involves tank swapping, so the actual uptime is closer to 25-28% as I was tanking more than the other tank. Which would of course, even at my haste values, make haste alot more valuable than the expertise cap.

But wait! THERE IS MORE ( Billy Mays yo )

This is assuming that the damage taken is consistant. Lets instead assume that we have a fight where the damage is extremely spiky for a short duration where you will want to use HW defensively for the increased 20% healing received, healing done, damage done ( this all scales extremely well with eachother but that is a different topic ), but mostly, increased HoPo regen.

Lets say a titan gas on WotE, or even better, tanking all the 6 adds on Empress P2.

Now, the adds on Empress P2 die fairly quickly. Checking our logs on Empress, I took all the 6 small adds therefore taking huge damage. Just tanking and spanking, no kiting or whatnot.

From that I had all adds picked up. The first add died after 15 seconds and the second add after 30 seconds. That means that for the first 2 adds I can have 100% uptime of SW. Now checking the graph, that shows how hard haste is favored for this kind of situation.

The third add died after 42 seconds still giving me around 70% uptime. After 3 adds are dead, the damage taken is really trivial so any point after this is not worth counting.

Now what conclusions can we draw from this? As said earlier, this graph is considering my extreme haste values and extreme low exp values. Even at these values haste and expertise is quite even, depending on fight length haste or exp is slightly favored for me using SW. However on any fight where HW is used as a major cooldown or any fight involving tank swaps, haste instead takes a gigantic lead. Now for anything not at my haste values, this would be even more skewered. With my values, even for some reason I just managed to have 10% uptime on HW, even at 10%, the difference is tiny between haste and expertise, which I believe that fights were the uptime is alot higher highly compensates for this. ( and 10% is unrealistically low even for a 1 tank fight ).

However, does this only apply to people using SW?Without using Sw, here are some values showing how much each point of exp/haste increase your HoPo regen.

0% haste 7.5 exp

Expertise: 0.0007843137

Haste: 0.00092897

Result: Haste is 18% better at 0% haste 7.5exp for HoPo regen.

0% haste 14 exp

Expertise: 0.0007843137

Haste: 0.0009831674

Result: Haste is 25.35% better at 0% haste and 14 exp for HoPo regen.

15% haste 7.5 exp

Expertise: 0.0010372549

Haste: 0.0010837406

Result: Haste is 4.48% better at 15% haste and 7.5 exp for HoPo regen

15% haste 14 exp

Expertise: 0.0010372549

Haste: 0.0011306425

Result: Haste is 9.00% better at 15% haste and 7.5 exp for HoPo regen

So what does this mean? Yes, at lower stat values haste is better than exp for HoPo regenwithout SW

Also, for anyone stacking mastery,haste is better than expertisefor HoPo regenafter soft cap has been reached. As if you do not go haste you will have 0% haste at 7.5 expertise.without SW

So, what is the catch? The drawback is of course is that expertise gives smoother HoPo regen, which means that you can get parried several times in a row with your CS. However as J always gives HoPo at soft cap, no matter how unlucky you are you will not get 0 HoPo regen even if you get a parry streak.

I can not raise my hand and say that I personally have died from a parried attack yet. Of course it is impossible to tell how many times increased HoPo regen from haste has saved me, so impossible to compare these. So this is of course a matter of personal choice. Personally I do not think parried attacks are a huge factor since one parried attack is not the entire world, and having two in a row almost never happens, and when it does, not the end of the world either. So, this is once again the standard argument between damage smoothening and damage reduction. However, this is more between damage smoothening and damage smoothening. This is a personal choice where no decision is the correct one.

Graphs on HoPo regen with AW on different ratings

These graphs have the exactly same settings as the previous graph. So if you wonder about what the x and y axis are, scroll up.

Graph 1

Red: Expertise HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste ( expertise above 7.5 below 15 )

Blue: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 7.5 expertise

Black: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 0% haste 14 expertise

Graph 2

Red: Expertise HoPo regeneration value at 15% haste ( expertise above 7.5 below 15 )

Blue: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 15% haste 7.5 expertise

Black: Haste HoPo regeneration value at 15% haste 14 expertise

Anyone interested in the maths and a more in depth reasoning behind this, feel free to PM me. I tried to keep it simple here