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  1. #301
    The Patient
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    I think this whole "hybrid tax" is a lame excuse for explaining anything, so much conjecture.

  2. #302
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindp View Post
    I think this whole "hybrid tax" is a lame excuse for explaining anything, so much conjecture.
    I'm away on holiday with little/no internet, so I've been absent for a bit (and will be for a week or so more) - but the official word out of Blizzard is that the hybrid tax doesn't truly exist anymore. Until Blizzard states that the hybrid tax is returned, that hybrid specs are balanced around their utility while pures are not - because they have the option of role switching between attempts - I think we should all assume that the hybrid tax does not exist (as Blizzard has said it doesn't), and that our damage is a little low in single target, and could use a burst cooldown to make us more responsive to fight mechanics.
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  3. #303
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    Yvaelle, you're one smart Canadian

  4. #304
    Bringing back DAA seems to be a very popular idea amongst players, but it does have the possibility of making an already powerful class in PvP even more powerful. Number tweaking as mentioned previously is the safest solution, but it's too early to say if the developers think we absolutely need to have the burst cooldown.

  5. #305
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mindp View Post
    Yvaelle, you're one smart Canadian
    <3!

    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon
    Bringing back DAA seems to be a very popular idea amongst players, but it does have the possibility of making an already powerful class in PvP even more powerful. Number tweaking as mentioned previously is the safest solution, but it's too early to say if the developers think we absolutely need to have the burst cooldown.
    The players I think just want to have their wings back, we lost our wings Everyone likes having wings, to lose them is sad (so, the players I think are concerned about the visual here) - the glyph of course helps, but we could wings on demand before not for 8 seconds during combat. Bringing back DAA to pvp wouldn't be nearly what it used to be - before Mind Blast was our finisher, and now its a combo builder - so before it increased our GCD burst by 25%, and now it's all about DP/Halo for burst.

    Because of that, I think it would make everyone happy to bring the graphic back, but give it a new mechanic entirely.

    The risk of making us too good in pvp isn't really too serious I don't think. In high end PvP Shadow is amazing utility (mass dispels, healing, clutch game changing moves like Leap of Faith, Void Shift, Vampiric Embrace) - but we aren't Really there for damage or burst anymore (during WotLK and Cata, we were there for damage/burst largely).

    That means that the comps we really excel in PvP practically Require a frost mage to babysit us - quite literally our only real Gladiator+ capable comp right now (and before the hybrid healing nerf, which hit us hard) is Shadow/Fmage/Resto (sham or druid): combined they make up something like 95% of Shadow Gladiator-contenders this season last I checked (a couple weeks ago before I left). Very little comp diversity, and Fmages have been getting chain-nerfed since 5.1 (with reason): which will really hurt our only comp.

    Making us a little burstier might keep us relevant, because every pvp fmage nerf you read is effectively a Shadow nerf this season for all serious pvp spriests - our fate is tied to theirs, until death do us part (or rogues return, and RPS makes a comeback - which hopefully happens in 5.2!)
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  6. #306
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    I I think we should all assume that the hybrid tax does not exist (as Blizzard has said it doesn't)
    When most of the healer-capable hybrids are the lowest performing specs on Simcraft, hybrid tax does indeed exist, whether Blizzard admits it or not.

  7. #307
    Quote Originally Posted by Venaliter View Post
    When most of the healer-capable hybrids are the lowest performing specs on Simcraft, hybrid tax does indeed exist, whether Blizzard admits it or not.
    The hybrid tax does exists and blizzard is choosing to ignore it. They're quoted saying that they want pures to do more dps to preserve they're popularity in PvE, due to lack of utility.

    So we're faced to deal with our utility as a hybrid tax, except now blizzard effectively telling us to deal with it. It's now a hidden tax. It's not like every 25m will consists of just pallies, priests Druids and shammies with one lock and one mage.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by problydrunk View Post
    The hybrid tax does exists and blizzard is choosing to ignore it.
    Agreed, saying anything different is just being oblivious to what's in front of their face.

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  9. #309
    +damage cooldowns are probably the easiest way to fix the class's single target without breaking PVP, because they can just add 'less effective against players' to the tooltip and have its effectiveness reduced by 90% (or whatever amount is required) in BGs and arena.

  10. #310
    Stood in the Fire Drfireburns's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snaxattax View Post
    +damage cooldowns are probably the easiest way to fix the class's single target without breaking PVP, because they can just add 'less effective against players' to the tooltip and have its effectiveness reduced by 90% (or whatever amount is required) in BGs and arena.
    Logical ideas for Priests typically don't apply.

  11. #311
    Quote Originally Posted by problydrunk View Post
    The hybrid tax does exists and blizzard is choosing to ignore it. They're quoted saying that they want pures to do more dps to preserve they're popularity in PvE, due to lack of utility.

    So we're faced to deal with our utility as a hybrid tax, except now blizzard effectively telling us to deal with it. It's now a hidden tax. It's not like every 25m will consists of just pallies, priests Druids and shammies with one lock and one mage.
    Where was the Hybrid tax when SPs were owning face in FL and DS then?

    There are no Hybrid tax, just bad class balance, Sps need a slight single target buff but blamming hybrid tax nowadays its idiotic
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  12. #312
    While it might seem 'logical', Blizzard really tries to use that as last resort. They stated they don't want abilities do behave differently in PvP and PvE, so I really doubt they would opt for such a fix...

  13. #313
    Stood in the Fire Drfireburns's Avatar
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  14. #314
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Where was the Hybrid tax when SPs were owning face in FL and DS then?

    There are no Hybrid tax, just bad class balance, Sps need a slight single target buff but blamming hybrid tax nowadays its idiotic
    There is one, even if blizzard refuses to admit it. We have one of the best healing raid CDs out of any class and it scales with our dps, which is insane.

    Also during fl/ds shadow was one of the strongest casters and we had no raid cd.
    Last edited by Drye; 2012-12-26 at 10:05 PM.

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  15. #315
    Quote Originally Posted by Hellfury View Post
    Where was the Hybrid tax when SPs were owning face in FL and DS then?

    There are no Hybrid tax, just bad class balance, Sps need a slight single target buff but blamming hybrid tax nowadays its idiotic
    You're right. What was I thinking? We did have L90 talents and GoDB back in Cata. The new flavor of hybrid tax, given the current spec system, taste alike like 20% less capable single target dps while doing half effective healing of a dedicated healer. You can't claim class balance if our lowef dps is offset by mid-fight utility, that's a hybrid tax.
    Last edited by problydrunk; 2012-12-26 at 07:39 PM.

  16. #316
    during FL and DS we had divine hymn, which was a very legit heal. used it a lot in DS progression except for maybe ultraxion.

    also, if you specced for it you could get no cooldown PWS as shadow. was amazing for 10 mans, especially if you were the only priest.

  17. #317
    We call it hybrid tax because thats what it used to be, no longer in existence since tlk. Now we have about 20k dps lower than the current best single target dps, and every one seems to say "its because you bring utility"(which we don't really) hence the hybrid tax.
    Drye, we had way more utility back then, but the main "problem" was SP was excelent in multi doting and bit crappy in single target, they made us very good on single target/burst scenarios with our 4p in t13, but on FL we were kinda crappy on Baleroc. But thats not really the issue, what I am afraid blizz might do (and im pretty sure its what they are gona do) is fix our dps with our set bonuses. Its the easiest way for them to bring us on par in pve w/o touching pvp. But its a very stupid thing to do especially when the next tier won't be the last, so it will be at best a temporary solution.

  18. #318
    Brewmaster Orangetai420's Avatar
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    Mindflay on the run would be epic beyond belief. I would return to my priest and melt faces.

  19. #319
    Brewmaster Alanar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Orangetai420 View Post
    Mindflay on the run would be epic beyond belief. I would return to my priest and melt faces.
    I made a thread about it before checking it here, but i think this would be a welcome change. No one likes to stand still and do horrible damage, so why not make it a little bit more usefull and do horrible damage on the run >.>

  20. #320
    Mechagnome soulyouth's Avatar
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    As "FUN" as it would be to flay on the move, it would not close the dps gap on single target fights, we need dmg buffs or a cd as it has been said in this thread a bunch of times.

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