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  1. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon
    I have no problem topping meters in my 25M guild, regardless of gear. If you invest time in perfecting your rotation and learning which talents to use on which encounter
    We already talked a lot about your kind of people, search the previous pages.
    The fact that you outdpsing 15-16 others is not because you are good butt it's most likely because they suck.
    I'm glad you're able to make an assessment of my entire guild by my own personal ability to pull competitive DPS with my Priest. Clearly this has everything to do with my guild being awful and nothing to do with the class being proportionately underpowered. If anything, wouldn't "my kind of people" benefit the most from a buff, since we'd be doing even better DPS than we are already?

    Perhaps it was my mistake for posting here and not agreeing with the hive mind that seems convinced that because they can't pull competitive DPS themselves that it's clearly the class' fault and not their own personal shortcomings. I stand by my assertion that things aren't nearly as bad a lot of people in this thread would like to think.
    Last edited by otaXephon; 2012-12-04 at 03:15 PM.

  2. #82
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    is already told and is a reality in a same level of players, spriest are not even close to be at pair of some others dps classes, and so if you are at the top of the meters as a shadowpriest, something is wrong with you guild mages, warlocks, and others classes, if you get offended by reality you should stop posting or ignoring this, and stay in your fantasy world.

  3. #83
    Once again I'm going to point out what I think; a lot of you cry for no reason and in reality it's a learn to play issue.

    If only you could grasp the possibility it's you and not your class being the problem.
    Get creative, use ToF better for example. Multidot more!

    Of course, me telling you it's probably not the class but you being bad is going to upset some of you. But you have to face reality. Shadow is fine.

  4. #84
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    please explain us how to multi-dot Imperial, blade, grand empress, Lein shi, tsoulong, protector(lol multidotting in here) because probably im so bad that i cant see adds in those fights besides the boss, we are so terrible(heroic versions please not normal bosses).

    MV doesnt count is just a trash instance

  5. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    If you invest time in perfecting your rotation and learning which talents to use on which encounters, you shouldn't have a whole lot of problems doing your job and pulling reasonable numbers. If you're being benched as a SPriest because of your DPS, it's not a class issue...it's a personal play style issue.
    mm, perfecting your rotation... you do realize that shadow priest is one of the easiest dps spec in the game right now, with the least rng.

    it's one of the few specs that can't really benefit from combining cds or reacting to procs, paying attention to icd's etc.

    single target shadow priest is totally lifeless and doesn't really reward an amazing player.

    there isn't really a question of what to do while playing a shadow priest in a single target situation, it's too well-defined and doesn't allow the player to increase or decrease their dps substantially by playing well, or actually making some kind of *gasp* decision.

    shadow priest:
    -maximize dot uptime
    -cast mind blast on cd
    -cast DP @ 3 orb
    -mind flay something
    -cast whatever random 90 talent you've chosen

    contrast it with affliction lock which is also a dot class that has an intuitive design: maximize dot damage, every ability used actually contributes to this goal.
    they do this by:
    -maximizing dot uptime
    -increasing buffed dot uptime via pandemic (150% dot duration)
    -maximizing additional dot damage via MG / drain soul
    -increasing dot / MG / drain soul dot damage via haunt which can't be maintained 100% but can be combined with procs, need to maximize MG while haunt up
    -increasing dot / mg / drain soul damage via dark soul which can be combined with procs and _should_ be combined with haunt, need to maximize MG while ds/haunt are up
    -fel flames can resnapshot 2 of the dots and add a short amount of time, occasionally a debatable dps gain
    -soul shard can be used to instantly apply 3 dots

    soul shards, haunt, fel flame's 1 gcd resnapshot, mg, pandemic all contribute to a higher skill ceiling.

    aff was brilliantly designed in an intuitive way, the spec just works, and the difference between a shit player and an amazing one is actually evident, unlike the dumbed-down never a question of what to do, never a choice to be made shadow priest.

    things that would help shadow?
    -an actual dps cooldown that interacts with our rotation (not derr press shadowfiend/mindbender every x min)
    -a buffed mind spike with a recharge system that we can use to increase dps slightly during procs and balance that with making sure they are recharged for movement phases.
    -the ability to pool resources (orbs) until a trinket procs and then maximize DP uptime during that proc or increased damage phase (ie let us have 5 orbs total and get 2 3 orb DP during trinket proc if we can pay attention to ICD's) this also would help our burst which is currently a dps loss if we actually wait and want to use it as burst.

    there are lots of other possible ways to make shadow priest less of a mindless rotation and i'm pretty sure every single one of them would drastically affect pvp and therefore won't be implemented during a pvp season or likely ever. doesn't mean i have to like our current rotation.

    as an aside, i played my spriest in our last raid and having me there instead of our warlock on h spirit kings was probably a raid dps gain (mass dispel) having me there for normal wind lord helped the healers/tanks (mass dispel), having me there for all fights helped the raid(spell haste/fort), on h feng i did a lot of healing via divine star (which was totally unnecessary but...) i'm definitely not of the opinion that shadow is worthless, but after playing a different dot class, shadow single target currently leaves A LOT to be desired, it's just not a compelling playstyle right now.

  6. #86
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    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I have no problem topping meters in my 25M guild.
    can u post logs of those fights...im pretty sure it must be heroics version and everyone in your raid is ranking

  7. #87
    Moderator Yvaelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cham View Post
    Once again I'm going to point out what I think; a lot of you cry for no reason and in reality it's a learn to play issue.

    If only you could grasp the possibility it's you and not your class being the problem.
    Get creative, use ToF better for example. Multidot more!

    Of course, me telling you it's probably not the class but you being bad is going to upset some of you. But you have to face reality. Shadow is fine.
    Shadow isn't broken by any means, we're not even 'bad' - but we are, mathematically, behind pretty much every other spec in the game in single target DPS. Now, somebody is always the lowest single target spec - but ideally, the lowest single target dps spec should have some factor justifying their low performance, ie. being low at single target, but high at multi-dot (a position shadow has been in many times in the past). Shadow's DoTs were over-nerfed though IMO, our multi-dot damage is nothing special anymore - we're the lowest DoT class on multi-dot fights consistently as well (which includes fights with cleave mechanics like Stone Dogs). The most exceptional component of Shadow in raid PvE is our raid utility, and it's pretty great - but it's also something that Ghostcrawler as repeatedly said was exempt from DPS balance consideration since The Burning Crusade (when all DPS specs were normalized).

    Officially we aren't being balanced around Vampiric Embrace and Hymn of Hope and Glyph of Dark Binding, which leaves only two options :

    (a) either we are unofficially being balanced around raid utility, and I'm fine with that if they are willing to officially commit to that. I rerolled to Shadow at the start of TBC when they became mana battery / support healers. It's what I originally loved about this spec - but it's something they moved away from years ago and, at least through WotLK and Cataclysm - it's something they have proven to be ignoring when balancing our DPS in the last two expansions.

    (b) our DPS is low because it needs some minor tweaks to bring it up ~10% in single target damage, not by the dev teams intent - but simply because sometimes specs do less damage than intended and need minor tweaks.

    Shadow is fine, I agree - and I think the majority of this people in this thread agree - it could be better though - and as the spriest community, it's kind of our job to brainstorm on how
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  8. #88
    May I add to this thread in saying Spriest is extremely mundane. Cata Spriest was really fun in comparison to this borefest.

  9. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    When FDCL's proc was just a regular mind spike that didn't wipe dots - it was trash, but when they made FDCL give MsK's + 50% bonus damage, I think that ended up taking the DPET well above Mind Flay.

    Just punched a dummy for a few casts, with 23,421 spellpower my average FDCL non-crit was 60k, my average mind flay tick was only 17k, mind flay ticks three times in 2.4 seconds, FDCL proc is a single GCD, so MF's dpet is like 25,500 versus FDCL's 60k (assuming we're not gcd capped yet for that dpet). A 25% buff to MF would bring its dpet to 31,875 - but still way below the like 60k dpet on an FDCL proc - it's still going to always be the right call to ùse FDCL procs when you have them over Mind Flay, even with a 25% buff - hell we could double MF's damage and only then start worrying about FDCL procs not being worthwhile - MF apparently blows right now!

    That's just bad napkin math. A FDCL proc(the actual dmg from the proc) is only affected by crit, no other secondary stat benefits it. MF on the other hand has great scaling, it scales from our mastery, haste and crit. It also scales very well with int and SP.


    Quote Originally Posted by Purpleisbetter View Post
    What the...

    Could you please add some sense in that reply of your?
    It's just not worth my time to argue with someone who doesn't understand class mechanics or logic.

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  10. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    That's just bad napkin math. A FDCL proc(the actual dmg from the proc) is only affected by crit, no other secondary stat benefits it. MF on the other hand has great scaling, it scales from our mastery, haste and crit. It also scales very well with int and SP.
    FDCL does do more damage than mind flay, but it's offset by having mindbender to top up your damage.

  11. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Ferin View Post
    FDCL does do more damage than mind flay, but it's offset by having mindbender to top up your damage.
    You are correct. However, you are incorrect if MF were to get the buff. Which is what we were talking about. Expecially since if they were to do it, it would be a 5.2 or later change and our gear would be more insane, making MF stronger.

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  12. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Yvaelle View Post
    (a) either we are unofficially being balanced around raid utility, and I'm fine with that if they are willing to officially commit to that. I rerolled to Shadow at the start of TBC when they became mana battery / support healers. It's what I originally loved about this spec - but it's something they moved away from years ago and, at least through WotLK and Cataclysm - it's something they have proven to be ignoring when balancing our DPS in the last two expansions.

    (b) our DPS is low because it needs some minor tweaks to bring it up ~10% in single target damage, not by the dev teams intent - but simply because sometimes specs do less damage than intended and need minor tweaks.

    Shadow is fine, I agree - and I think the majority of this people in this thread agree - it could be better though - and as the spriest community, it's kind of our job to brainstorm on how
    So let's say we are balanced around our utility (which I think we are). Nothing changes if they were to confirm it, right?
    As far as I can remember we've always been mediocre at best for single target but great once we can multidot.
    I also rolled Shadow in TBC to be a mana battery. I love playing a DPS class with a support role.
    I actually feel like that's what I'm doing in MoP more than i did in Cata/WotLK. Doing a well placed Halo while still managing to be focused at dpsing is great fun for me, and let me tell you; the healers love you for it.

    Don't get me wrong though, I wouldn't complain if we got a single target buff.
    But as I see it Shadow is still viable, we're brought for several reasons and one of them actually is our DPS.

    Shadow used to be considered one of the more complex specs of the game. Now it's the opposite, but I'll argue the difference between a good and a great Shadowpriest has increased. Some might not agree, but there's more factors like a new talent system that plays a part in this. Knowing what talents to pick, and how to maximize their use is probably overlooked by many.

    In conclusion I believe these threads has always followed Shadow because of our single target DPS, and being a DoT class we have to either live with it or get changed to become even more like affliction warlocks.
    I don't know what I'd prefer, but Shadow does has some bad design with talents. They can't buff MB/MF because of talents. They can't buff DoTs because of multidotting. There's pretty much nothing they can actually change without changing the basics of the spec.

    Well actually I can think of one thing that would only affect single target dps. Make the procced Mind Spike castable while channeling Mind Flay.
    It would only affect SW:I and Mindbender, but those tweaks would be the easiest to make.

    As long as I keep the feel of being a support class I'm happy... And seeing I feel competitive right now while feeling like a support class, everything's fine for me!

  13. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by Drye View Post
    That's just bad napkin math. A FDCL proc(the actual dmg from the proc) is only affected by crit, no other secondary stat benefits it. MF on the other hand has great scaling, it scales from our mastery, haste and crit. It also scales very well with int and SP.




    It's just not worth my time to argue with someone who doesn't understand class mechanics or logic.
    Quite funny. Glad to see you look at very distant future.

    Now give me my buffs, im going really to think about u next time i get spell locked because i ran out of procs and i still had to fight against that second winded warrior for a whopping 3k damage.

    Make mind flay worth of something, i don't even care how. Make it able to proc FDCL so the guy here is happy.

    Anyway as Cham said (i did as well in the same thread) with the current talents there's no room to improve this spec.
    You can't buff any dot, u can't buff spikes nor blasts. Devouring at best is risking to get nerfed.Flay wich is a fine target seems to be not a good choice for many guys wich prefer to have a very sad filler.

    Scrap out talents and re-do them. The only way to go, wich won't happen.

    (make psychic horror to not share the same resource of our only hard hitting ability, and psyfiend able to defend your teammates as well).

  14. #94
    I must say it baffles me when people say somthing like "or get changed to become even more like affliction warlocks."
    You all do realise that Shadew in Wotlk and Cata was pretty much what affliction is now, in 5.0 they dumbed our specc down, made it less complex, nerfed our dotts and removed our cd and stuck us with proccs. while they gave Affliction what used to be ours.

    It's just so annoying, they changed our class completely, and it feels like they dident bother to finish the overhaul they started.. I love my priest, and for that reason dident reroll to affliction when MOP hit. It's just infuriating that he feels so unpolishd atm.

  15. #95
    I can guarantee you that Shadowpriests are a very balanced Class/Spec atm, with full gear SPs do insane amount of pressure, and unless you get interrupted/dispelled a lot, Spriests do A LOT of overall damage.

    Also we are the most viable hybrid spec/class out of all if you compare us, yes we are a Hybrid spec so you cannot really except us to become the new Warriors or Mages.

  16. #96
    Herald of the Titans Keosen's Avatar
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    The thing is that the line between a good and bad priest is nearly indistinguishable now.
    When you reach an average level of DPSing you pretty much do the same single target dps as any othe SP and the difference is almost entirely based on your ilvl.

    Our DPS, especially on single target, is so predictable that it's really an achievement form Blizzard side.
    I'm sure that if i do Feng with the same gear 10 times in a row i will be in the same ~83k +-500 on all 10 tries.
    It's utterly boring, uninteresting and they really need to spark it up a lot.

  17. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by sobadlol View Post
    I can guarantee you that Shadowpriests are a very balanced Class/Spec atm, with full gear SPs do insane amount of pressure, and unless you get interrupted/dispelled a lot, Spriests do A LOT of overall damage.

    Also we are the most viable hybrid spec/class out of all if you compare us, yes we are a Hybrid spec so you cannot really except us to become the new Warriors or Mages.
    My good man, i hope youre reffering to pvp. Becouse, in pve we are quite a bit behind. When it comes to pvp i must confess, i'm not realy up to date. Dont realy play alot of pvp, but i do competative raiding. And as raid dps we are a bit underpowerd atm.

  18. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by Keosen View Post
    The thing is that the line between a good and bad priest is nearly indistinguishable now.
    When you reach an average level of DPSing you pretty much do the same single target dps as any othe SP and the difference is almost entirely based on your ilvl.

    Our DPS, especially on single target, is so predictable that it's really an achievement form Blizzard side.
    I'm sure that if i do Feng with the same gear 10 times in a row i will be in the same ~83k +-500 on all 10 tries.
    It's utterly boring, uninteresting and they really need to spark it up a lot.
    Yepp you pretty much summed it up here. Im in a 10 man guild and we have 2 spriest in the raids, and we are always at the same DPS give or take 1k. And we both have 490ilvl~

    It's by far one of the most easiest and boring speccs in the game, i have a warlock alt with about 10 ilvl's lower than my priest and with little mastery (45% unbuffed) and i pull hell of alot more DPS than my priest on it.

    Funny that one guy in this thread, said he had no problems topping the meters as spriest in his 25 man guild, as other people have mentioned your mages/locks are doing it wrong.
    Last edited by actiwe; 2012-12-05 at 10:30 AM.

  19. #99
    Legendary! Granyala's Avatar
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    the huge mop revamp is the problem. shifted damage away from dots and to nukes. to procs. it's not even a fucking shadowpriest anymore, it's more like a mage than a shadow priest
    Aye, that's why I refuse to use FDCL / DI - Talents.

    I raid as ToF & MB. Feels a lot like the good old TBC days. ^_^

    Becouse, in pve we are quite a bit behind.
    Well If they tone down affliction and the other mage specs mage in general we'd all be pretty similar.

    http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html
    Last edited by Granyala; 2012-12-05 at 11:53 AM.

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  20. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Well If they tone down affliction and the other mage specs mage in general we'd all be pretty similar.
    Yeah if they tone down some speccs like arcane, frost and affliction etc. and buff SP, ELE and boomkin about 5% so that all dps classes are withing 5k dps from echother or so that would be nice. Becouse as it is now, the dps gap between some classes is just too flawed.

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