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  1. #21
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    People who complain and say "Told you so!" over the effects of the Arab Spring and the deposing of dictators miss the point entirely.

    Firstly, even if Egypt instantly reverted to Sharia Law within a week of Mubarak's fall it would still be just that he went. The world losing a dictator is always positive. That it might become something worse is a different issue altogether and the idea that it would be preferable in hindsight to support a corrupt pseudo-secular Western friendly dictator because of what might happen afterwards is insulting to those who protested against his regime. It insinuates the idea that those in the middle-east are incapable of governing themselves and need some corrupt puppet to hold them together. That we should hold them hostage (as the argument goes) to this because how they might act unleashed is insulting and borderline racist.

    Secondly those who decry this gloss over the most important thing of this power-grab. The Egyptians are not going quietly. They are protesting again. They aren't watching it go by to walk back into a new dictatorship. That is encouraging. This is the real consequence of the Arab Spring.

  2. #22
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    People who complain and say "Told you so!" over the effects of the Arab Spring and the deposing of dictators miss the point entirely.

    Firstly, even if Egypt instantly reverted to Sharia Law within a week of Mubarak's fall it would still be just that he went. The world losing a dictator is always positive. That it might become something worse is a different issue altogether and the idea that it would be preferable in hindsight to support a corrupt pseudo-secular Western friendly dictator because of what might happen afterwards is insulting to those who protested against his regime. It insinuates the idea that those in the middle-east are incapable of governing themselves and need some corrupt puppet to hold them together. That we should hold them hostage (as the argument goes) to this because how they might act unleashed is insulting and borderline racist.

    Secondly those who decry this gloss over the most important thing of this power-grab. The Egyptians are not going quietly. They are protesting again. They aren't watching it go by to walk back into a new dictatorship. That is encouraging. This is the real consequence of the Arab Spring.
    Yeah, the real result of the Arab Spring is that dictators in the region have reason to fear and respect their populace now. So even if the dictators remain in power, their power is limited a bit more in scope now.
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  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    People who complain and say "Told you so!" over the effects of the Arab Spring and the deposing of dictators miss the point entirely.
    [...]
    The world losing a dictator is always positive.
    Where was a dictator lost? Egypt just changed hands from Mubarak to Mursi.

    When Iran's revolution overthrew the Shah, the country went straight backwards. Iran was a modern nation, women weren't compelled to wear the veil, it was in many regards like Turkey. Now, their president has openly threatened Israel and Jews for years while possibly building nuclear weapons. Now women are being stoned to death again, sometimes even if they do wear the veil. Now, charges of witchcraft are being thrown around at top government officials.

    Overthrowing dictators is usually a good thing, but it's no guarantee when the other option is an Islamic theocracy, which we know doesn't work very well just by observing the world.

    Btw, anyone who says the ME isn't the rest of the world's business is crazy. We live in an interconnected world where anyone we're not paying attention to could blindside us with a surprise attack. When your activities put my life at risk, your activities become my business. I'm sick of treating Muslims with kid gloves. If we're all equal, why does political correctness dictate that we treat them so differently, and why do so many people go along with it?
    Last edited by Trotheus; 2012-11-30 at 08:54 PM.
    What the world needs is Lesshammad.

  4. #24
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trotheus View Post
    Where was a dictator lost? Egypt just changed hands from Mubarak to Mursi.
    They lost Mubarak. That Mursi might turn out to be worse is immaterial to the fact that by mass protest they threw out a dictator. Our support for that even if only lip service puts us on the right side of history.

    When Iran's revolution overthrew the Shah, the country went straight backwards.
    Yes, it did. The fact that the Shah was overthrown was still a good thing.

    Iran was a modern nation, women weren't compelled to wear the veil, it was in many regards like Turkey. Now, their president has openly threatened Israel and Jews for years while possibly building nuclear weapons. Now women are being stoned to death again, sometimes even if they do wear the veil. Now, charges of witchcraft are being thrown around at top government officials.

    Overthrowing dictators is usually a good thing, but it's no guarantee when the other option is an Islamic theocracy, which we know doesn't work very well just by observing the world.
    Of course, Mursi is trying to grant himself by law his enabling act but is being met with mass protest, strikes and civil disobedience for it. That is as I've said: encouraging.

    Btw, anyone who says the ME isn't the rest of the world's business is crazy. We live in an interconnected world where anyone we're not paying attention to could blindside us with a surprise attack. When your activities put my life at risk, your activities become my business. I'm sick of treating Muslims with kid gloves. If we're all equal, why does political correctness dictate that we treat them so differently, and why do so many people go along with it?
    This has nothing to do with treating Muslims equally or with kid gloves. The ME is the rest of the world's business and we should be consistently encouraging and supporting secular humanist groups there.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    Yes, it did. The fact that the Shah was overthrown was still a good thing.
    For religious fanatics that surely holds true.

  6. #26
    Epic! Skavau's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by whoranzone View Post
    For religious fanatics that surely holds true.
    That it was taken over by religious fanatics was a bad thing, of course.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    People who complain and say "Told you so!" over the effects of the Arab Spring and the deposing of dictators miss the point entirely.

    Firstly, even if Egypt instantly reverted to Sharia Law within a week of Mubarak's fall it would still be just that he went. The world losing a dictator is always positive. That it might become something worse is a different issue altogether and the idea that it would be preferable in hindsight to support a corrupt pseudo-secular Western friendly dictator because of what might happen afterwards is insulting to those who protested against his regime. It insinuates the idea that those in the middle-east are incapable of governing themselves and need some corrupt puppet to hold them together. That we should hold them hostage (as the argument goes) to this because how they might act unleashed is insulting and borderline racist.

    Secondly those who decry this gloss over the most important thing of this power-grab. The Egyptians are not going quietly. They are protesting again. They aren't watching it go by to walk back into a new dictatorship. That is encouraging. This is the real consequence of the Arab Spring.
    Hmmm remember the french revolution?

  8. #28
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    Hmmm remember the french revolution?
    What about it? France took like 150 years or so to become stable after that revolution, but they do pretty well these days.
    Go and tell my baby sister
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  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    What about it? France took like 150 years or so to become stable after that revolution, but they do pretty well these days.
    yeah, that's kinda my point. 150 years just seems like a long time, and even then france was battered away by nearby aggressors and had its own imperialist ventures with disastrous results. the key difference with arab spring countries will be the influence of oil. will they use it to become as rich as first nations, or will it be hoarded by the oligarchs and dictators, the money from which being used to suppress the people?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Skavau View Post
    That it was taken over by religious fanatics was a bad thing, of course.
    In the ME there's no other option. That any attempt at the self-rule of nations whose inhabitants identify themselves almost solely with their religion will involve majority-supported religious lunatics is a given, and it's thoroughly unsurprising that Mursi has declared himself a dictator - the religion we're discussing is the one of retaliation (eye for an eye), not the one of progress (turn other cheek). They don't feel that it's wrong to dictate brutally, only that they should be the ones dictating, rather than 'the other guy'.
    What the world needs is Lesshammad.

  11. #31
    So yeah, as if this wasn't predicted even before Mubarak's fall.


  12. #32
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Raybourne View Post
    yeah, that's kinda my point. 150 years just seems like a long time, and even then france was battered away by nearby aggressors and had its own imperialist ventures with disastrous results. the key difference with arab spring countries will be the influence of oil. will they use it to become as rich as first nations, or will it be hoarded by the oligarchs and dictators, the money from which being used to suppress the people?
    I think the key difference is that the French Revolution was based on enlightenment ideals, where the Arab Spring seems to be resulting in more of a religious reactionary set of ideals. While it took the French a long time to get stable government, at least they were on the right track from a philosophical standpoint (agressive nationalism and imperialism aside). I don't feel like that's the case with the Arab Spring.
    Go and tell my baby sister
    Not to do what I have done
    Go and spurn that house down in New Orleans
    They call the Rising Sun

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Reeve View Post
    I could be wrong on this, but it was my understanding that it's not so much that the Muslim Brotherhood has an overwhelming majority of people voting for them. It's that all the other factions aren't united enough to stand against them. Can someone who's a bit more knowledgable about the situation clarify whether or not that's correct?

    ---------- Post added 2012-11-30 at 07:56 PM ----------

    well, just to lay off some facts. the problem has nothing to do with religion, but it is brought up frequently.

    sequence of events: since 2011
    --fact Muslim brotherhood are treated as criminals the last 60 years --
    1- Revolution Against mubarak. and is rising
    2- Muslim brotherhood support the revolution with everything they got
    3- mubarak falls, and the military council takes control
    4- political parties start forming, some based on religion, some not.
    5- muslim brotherhood being very well organized and with great power on a social level, form a very strong party (well they had it already)
    6- military council seeks to stabilize the nation thus "allies" with the muslim brotherhood as they have a very wide reach to the ppl.
    7- the rest of the parties already have trust issues with the muslim brotherhood and feel their intentions seem to be very unclear and... mutating.
    8- vote for an amendment to the current constitution (YES) or rewrite a new one (NO)
    9- religion based parties call to the ppl to vote (YES) to go to heaven and if (NO) they will go to hell.... guess what the result was
    (most parties are against the muslim brotherhood, and some other parties)
    10- incidents vs the military council, Muslim brotherhood against military council, but they shift again when things settle.
    11- a parliament is created, I believe it was 47% of the muslim brotherhood, 70% total for religion based parties (non from the church)
    12- a group of ppl are elected from the parliament for the new constitution (majority selected by the religion based parties)
    13- a court finds the parliament invalid due to incorrect distributions in the numbers of members from parties vs members not representing a party (should be 50 -50) parliament disbanded, group to write the constitution are kept as they are (by the military council)
    14- mursi declares clear disagreements with the military council and says they must be held responsible for what they caused in county in damages.
    15- mursi wins the elections.
    16- military council are retired peacefully (no actions against them)
    17- mursi seeks to gain more power to clean up traces of the previous regime, target = department of justice
    18- ppl protest for such an interference and him seeking power that isn't his
    19- morsi takes back his decision
    20- court is already discussing the status of the group writing the constitution (i apologize for not knowing the proper translation) and decision was to be made on 2nd december (today)
    21- morsi returns hears of what they will say, he seals and declares that group not to be touched, replaces the "attorney general"
    22- constitution is finished (in a rather hasty way before the court sentence date) with many leaks and weak/missing points
    23- morsi prepares the new constitution to be voted on on dec 15th

    a story from their side: is that those decisions have to be made to prevent the country from falling into chaos
    story from protesters, knowing previous distrust (and events that would make morsi and his party gain more trust are non existent) his decisions are making him like a pharaoh and such power is not meant to be in your hands "again" (after the lesson from Mubarak)
    morsi acts as he is the president of his voters only, but not the opposers also ( = /ignore protesters)

    sorry for being lengthy, but can't really say much about the current, before saying whats the tension is from.

  14. #34
    The Insane Reeve's Avatar
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    Egypt is now empowering its military to act as police forces in the run-up to the constitutional referendum on Saturday. President Morsi claims that this is not martial law:

    “It is merely a measure to extend legal cover for the armed forces while they are used to maintain security,” Ali told The Associated Press.
    It sounds like martial law to me.

    http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/...4e_story.html#
    Go and tell my baby sister
    Not to do what I have done
    Go and spurn that house down in New Orleans
    They call the Rising Sun

  15. #35
    Mechagnome LolretKJ's Avatar
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    This situation seems familiar. Egyptians protesting the person in power.
    Quote Originally Posted by Proberly View Post
    Oh would you now? It truly is amazing how many heroic people we have wasting their time on internet.

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