1. #1

    [Balance] Force of Nature scaling

    Because this is going on out of topic on a couple of threads, I decided to start a new thread with some logs showing my side of the " Force of Nature: Scales vs Doesn't scale with Gear/BL" argument:

    Control - Flask + Form Only :
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/7rygt...64p/details/2/ => 72543 dmg, 38 swings

    Buffs no TW: Flask + MotW + WoU + PT + NG :
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/zs1i3...twm/details/5/ => 79609 dmg, 44 swings

    Flask + MotW + TW (no other buffs/procs) :
    http://worldoflogs.com/reports/527ea...ttk/details/1/ => 94614 dmg, 51 swings

    It's is clearly shown that their swing timer scales with BL/TW/Hero/NG and that their Damage also scales with our Intellect/Spellpower.

    Although this increase is so minimal it's not worth holding off FoN to be used with procs. The only time you want to hold from casting it is if you know a BL effect is near.

    (Please correct me if you find something wrong in the logs. Also any other spells found in the logs were simply to lengthen the parse in order to upload it. Dummies had no damage-increasing debuffs on them while FoS was active)
    Last edited by Juvencus; 2012-03-16 at 07:57 PM.

  2. #2
    Actually, just going off your total damage numbers and number of swings it looks like they are not scaling with int/spellpower, only with haste - because the damage per swing is staying about the same.

    72453/38 = 1906.66 damage per swing
    79609/44 = 1809.30 damage per swing
    94614/51 = 1855.18 damage per swing

    To me that looks like int/spellpower does nothing, and they are simply scaling with haste (more swings) and the differences in damage per swing average is rng variance in the damage range.
    Last edited by Keiyra; 2012-03-16 at 08:03 PM.

  3. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Actually, just going off your total damage numbers and number of swings it looks like they are not scaling with int/spellpower, only with haste - because the damage per swing is staying about the same.

    72453/38 = 1906.66 damage per swing
    79609/44 = 1809.30 damage per swing
    94614/51 = 1855.18 damage per swing

    To me that looks like int/spellpower does nothing, and they are simply scaling with haste (more swings) and the differences in damage per swing average is rng variance in the damage range.
    Hmm. I will try with buffs but not DoTs this time so I don't proc NG. Although I don't know how to keep WoU up without applying Earth and Moon (just in case it affects them). Will try later.

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 11:27 PM ----------

    Yeah it seems you are right. Just tested it with buffs, while removing NG before casting them and they have 1878 average per swing.

    Seems they only scale only with our haste/crit/hit only and not with Intel/SP like I thought. Can't remember where I read that they do though...

    ---------- Post added 2012-03-16 at 11:31 PM ----------

    "Force of Nature: The trends do scale with the caster's spell power, but not in a significant way that it makes sense to delay casting the spell. Force of Nature should be cast on cooldown or when you need particularly high DPS. It's also important to note that the Trents are buffed by Bloodlust/Heroism and Battle Shout. If possible summon the trents just before these buffs are applied for added DPS."

    From: http://graymatterwow.blogspot.co.uk (but the guide is labeled 4.2)

    Also from E.J 4.3 Guide:
    The Treant's Attack Power is proportional to your current spellpower (i.e. it changes if your spellpower changes after casting).

    I have no idea now....
    Last edited by Juvencus; 2012-03-16 at 11:34 PM.

  4. #4
    I posted on that other guys forum post about HC ultraxion.

    Tried sitting on a dummy with and without heroism. Without heroism they did 77k and with heroism they did 94k. So it supports your statement that they do scale with Hero / TW / Lust.

    However, I'm not sure why on WoL the up time of Temporal Displacement / Lust / Heroism is 0.0% even though it clearly shows that the treants gain Exhaustion.

  5. #5
    Maybe the game reports 0% uptime, because of how it handles pets that despawn?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Keiyra View Post
    Actually, just going off your total damage numbers and number of swings it looks like they are not scaling with int/spellpower, only with haste - because the damage per swing is staying about the same.

    72453/38 = 1906.66 damage per swing
    79609/44 = 1809.30 damage per swing
    94614/51 = 1855.18 damage per swing

    To me that looks like int/spellpower does nothing, and they are simply scaling with haste (more swings) and the differences in damage per swing average is rng variance in the damage range.
    The swing amounts is wrong. The first set has 49 swings, the 2nd 58 and the last one 63. Also take rng in account, having attacks blocked/parried/etc. loses dmg on the 2nd log and crits give slighty more on the last one.

    But if you compare the avg. damage done by the normal hits in all the logs, it seems that int and spell power have nothing to do with it.

    With no procs: 1567.9
    With procs: 1484.8
    With TW but no procs: 1546.6

    From what it looks that it procs even scale the damage down, but its just rng here most likely. The treants do scale from Time Warp/Bloodlust/etc.

  7. #7
    They scale with sp. It's the only thing they scale with other than tw/bl/hero (and they need to be up before the proc starts, with int/sp the damage is updated as per hit basis). Compare with gear and without gear.

    With 600 sp, the hits ranged from 800-1200. With 10700, they ranged from 1700-2200.
    Last edited by Fojos; 2012-03-18 at 11:23 AM.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Fojos View Post
    They scale with sp. It's the only thing they scale with other than tw/bl/hero (and they need to be up before the proc starts, with int/sp the damage is updated as per hit basis). Compare with gear and without gear.

    With 600 sp, the hits ranged from 800-1200. With 10700, they ranged from 1700-2200.
    Can you provide logs for that? My tests were with WoU and Power Torrent so thats 880+500= 1380 Intelect * 1.169 (1 intel = 1.169 sp) = 1613 more spellpower and I did not see any difference apart from RNG.

    On the other hand you are talking about a 10000+ sp difference which would explain why it's not necessary to align them with procs.

  9. #9
    Assuming Fojos numbers are correct, they go from 1000 avg hit to 1850 avg hit - after a gain of 10100 sp

    850/10100 = means they should get an avg increase of 0.09 damage per hit per spellpower.

    With your test you increased spellpower by 1613, 1613*.09 = 145.17 damage...which is within the range of RNG.

    So yeah if you want to test, you are going to need a large SP difference. If the above info is correct, yeah they scale with sp, but by such a small value that its not worth waiting for procs. As long as they are up before Hero/TW you are good.

    Though i suppose someone could test them in and out of solar to see if that has any effect (though i don't think it does)

  10. #10
    I really just can't wait until Incarnation. I'm sick of popping these guys, I won't lie.
    If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Batix View Post
    I really just can't wait until Incarnation. I'm sick of popping these guys, I won't lie.
    Same .I just hope they don't end up better for dps :P

    Imo, by the looks of it now Incarnation will be for fights like Hagara where you have a small window where you want to do as much damage as possible which delaying Eclipse end is useful.

    Soul of the Forests looks better for the rest of the fights.
    Last edited by Juvencus; 2012-03-21 at 12:18 AM.

  12. #12
    Since we already have this thread here... FoN in MoP for Moonkin currently cast Wrath(at 3,5k a pop in mostly BiS gear, only missing Heroic Head, that spirit ring and the Spine trinket) and also know Entangling roots. They also spawn around you like Mirror Images, instead of having to be placed elsewhere(though the reticule still appears for some reason).

    We also have 20k mana base at 85(+80k for Resto/Balance).
    Last edited by huth; 2012-03-22 at 11:15 AM.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by huth View Post
    Since we already have this thread here... FoN in MoP for Moonkin currently cast Wrath(at 3,5k a pop in mostly BiS gear, only missing Heroic Head, that spirit ring and the Spine trinket) and also know Entangling roots. They also spawn around you like Mirror Images, instead of having to be placed elsewhere(though the reticule still appears for some reason).

    We also have 20k mana base at 85(+80k for Resto/Balance).
    Interesting. What do they do if you're feral/resto/guardian?

  14. #14
    Haven't checked yet. Server seems to have a bit of a hickup right now.

    Edit: Guardian treants can taunt and have a whopping 297k health each while i'm sitting there with 182k(caster equip currently).
    I also get no less that 19k AP shifting to bear/cat while specced balance o.O and Typhoon finally got a more fitting graphic.
    Last edited by huth; 2012-03-22 at 11:28 AM.

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Juvencus View Post
    Same .I just hope they don't end up better for dps :P

    Imo, by the looks of it now Incarnation will be for fights like Hagara where you have a small window where you want to do as much damage as possible which delaying Eclipse end is useful.

    Soul of the Forests looks better for the rest of the fights.
    Looks like right now, they cast Wrath, and are capable of casting roots. They do about twice as much damage as in live currently.
    If we do not destroy ourselves, we will one day venture to the stars.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Duliop View Post
    some of problems in the nature scale from int or agi based on expertise and they either scale from all further data or none of them. If they only get from rush and crit, what about gamers who like mastery?
    My logs and finding of other above are since March 2012, way before MoP. Right now I have no idea how they scale and of the scaling of and which stats changes per spec.

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