Warlock issue Chaos wave

[Gatsu]

Warlocks defending this are like warriors who were defending 5 stacks of TfB

[Phoenexis]

dispels are on an 8 second cooldown, i can only dispel one person at a time. i'm not going to be spam dispelling corruption off willy nilly, i'm probably going to be saving it for a fear or a frost bomb. anyway, a warlock can reapply it a lot quicker then i can get rid of it.

last time i went and tried to play demo, what little casting i did do resulted in a ton of imps, i'm not sure how anyone could kill all of them. i have demonic rebirth to bring the wraithguard back if he gets randomly gibbed, killing lock pets is a tried and true method of countering locks, any good one knows how to keep his pet up.

no one is playing shadowcleave right now, i'm not even sure it works without an afflock/uhdk. warriors are reeeeeelllly hard to kill, possibly even harder then warlocks. so going on dk/warr isn't really possible, mostly you end up training the healer.

warlocks have always had a lot of ways to open gaps and make space to cast for themselves, they tend to be very tanky in terms of their ability to take damage, add to that an aura mastery effect, carrion swarm, instant fears, multiple teleports, his team peeling for him, getting on a warlock and sitting on him is quite hard.

Warlocks have the least passive defense among all casters. What they mostly excel at now is on use abilities, which when stacked are extremely strong. I find it actually easy to force cooldowns on the warlock and pressuring him.

But back to the point. If Demonology doesn't get compensation for a Chaos Wave nerf, seeing as it needs more ramp-up than any other spec, then it will become underpowered. Why do I have to wait a minute in order to output the same burst as a Warrior that can just pop all of his cooldowns instantly? Also, don't forget that a lot of a warlock's utility is tied to his resource, unlike many other specs.

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

Chaos Wave is fine. My teammate got critted for 220k through 60.47% resilience.

[Dcruize]

Chaos Wave is fine. My teammate got critted for 220k through 60.47% resilience.

L2P issue apparently (according to what feels like half the player base on this forum).

[mmocfd1b0ab5a3]

L2P issue apparently (according to what feels like half the player base on this forum).

Ofc it's l2p issue. So was l2p issue people not fearing/rooting stampede pets. Double demo lock + healer team so ofc the burst is out of control.

[Deleted]

^This. If you don't see the damage coming, you're not a good player.

If you're a Warlock, and you see this coming, port out of LoS or pop a CD.
If you're a Mage, Blanket Silence, Blink or run out of LoS.
If you're a Rogue, Cloak or Spint and LoS.
If you're a Warrior, Spell Reflect, Mass Spell Reflect, Shield Wall, Heroic Leap out of LoS.
If you're a DK, AmS or Strangulate, or pop Defensives, or Remorseless Winter.
If you're a Monk, Silence or Paralyze and run out of LoS.
If you're a Pally, HoG, Bubble or Repentance.
If you're a Shaman, Grounding Totem, pop Astral Shift and pillar hump.
If you're a Hunter, Deterrence, Trap and run away.
If you're a Priest, Fear Bomb, Dispersion.

Basically, get better at the game, and this won't be a problem.

Not this again. I'll reply the same way I already have - this is all theoretical bollocks, in a realistic 3v3 setting where both teams are equally skilled demo warlocks are still overpowered. It's not a learn to play issue, it's not something you can resolve by using one of the 50 random abilities you just mentioned in your post there, the game balance is flawed. I don't care what a hunter, paladin, DK or whatever other class can do to counter chaos wave, the core of the problem is that in an arena environment which is what Blizzard is (or at least should be) balancing their game around you won't have 10 thousand defensive cooldowns available to you at all times. You're not playing alone, the person you're facing isn't playing alone. Your defensive cooldowns gradually deteriorate as the game progresses because outside of cooldowns things still happen, surprisingly enough. You can't hog your stuff forever just waiting for the warlock to prepare his burst, that's not the way things work.

I can use the same "be good at the game and x won't happen" argument but sensibly, watch: no good warlock that knows his class well will ever pop their CW 1 shot unless a) they know they can force cds that are longer than their own, ergo 2 minutes, or b) they know they are very likely to get a kill. If they do it's a wasted and they either suck or made a mistake for whatever reason. I don't really understand why you'd mention stuff like grounding, cloak and spell reflects when they don't work against CW, which I believe is something you should by now know seeing as it's very likely you play a warlock else you wouldn't be in denial and vehemently defending them. This is why you obviously want to force shorter cds like PvP trinkets, astral shift, dispersion, deterrence and the likes before you pop it and only worry about getting the longer ones out of the way, such as bubble, SLT (which is more of a curse than it is a gift when the class killing you is AoEing your whole team), etc. This is how you win games at decent ratings and is obvious to everyone, it's one of the most basic things you learn when you try to PvP seriously and I'll get to it later again.

Surely there are other spells and classes that need fixing in terms of ginormous burst (mages and warriors, first and foremost), the game right now relies on damage cooldowns (and defensives accordingly) to a pretty pathetic extent. They were always a big part of the meta-game but now, at least at high ratings, no one kills anyone outside of cooldowns; healers don't go oom really, all you do is you pop offensives to force defensives from your opponents and then wait until you eventually kill them through it or they run out. At one point or another he's gonna deep into PoM bomb + CS me when I have no bubble/trinket and I'm dead, or the other guy's going to pop pet stun + CWs when I have no trinket or bubble and I'm dead again. Whatever classes have the strongest (read: dealing the most damage + being the most reliable, where warlocks win by far even over mages and warriors) offensives are the most viable in arena, which is what you can clearly see happening everywhere by just looking at class representation or playing a bunch of games above 2.2k or some rating.

Why do you think BM hunters have basically been obliterated off the face of the earth?

[kosechi]

Warlocks have the least passive defense among all casters. What they mostly excel at now is on use abilities, which when stacked are extremely strong. I find it actually easy to force cooldowns on the warlock and pressuring him.

But back to the point. If Demonology doesn't get compensation for a Chaos Wave nerf, seeing as it needs more ramp-up than any other spec, then it will become underpowered. Why do I have to wait a minute in order to output the same burst as a Warrior that can just pop all of his cooldowns instantly? Also, don't forget that a lot of a warlock's utility is tied to his resource, unlike many other specs.

the passive +healing from fel armor alone is huge and nearly triples the potency of any healing done on you. thats pretty passive. any riptides, or miscellaneous druid hots that are ticking on you heals for a lot more. lets not get into the extra armor and hp that comes passive with it.....

and saying demo has ramp up time is an absolute lie. you can start with chaos waves pretty much right out of the gate and fury takes no effort to generate if you are managing your pets correctly.

what exactly do you do with your fury other then deal damage with it? a destro lock can heal himself with his embers, but a demo lock just deals damage with it. do you require fury to summon health stones? to lay portals? to fear people? to control your pet?

[Nicola]

the passive +healing from fel armor alone is huge and nearly triples the potency of any healing done on you. thats pretty passive. any riptides, or miscellaneous druid hots that are ticking on you heals for a lot more. lets not get into the extra armor and hp that comes passive with it.....

and saying demo has ramp up time is an absolute lie. you can start with chaos waves pretty much right out of the gate and fury takes no effort to generate if you are managing your pets correctly.

what exactly do you do with your fury other then deal damage with it? a destro lock can heal himself with his embers, but a demo lock just deals damage with it. do you require fury to summon health stones? to lay portals? to fear people? to control your pet?

wow, +10% healing taken, 2.5k armor ( I have 15k armor, which is 25% dr) and 10% extra health makes us so overpowered. NOT!

Also, chaos wave costs 120 fury, you need 240 to cast it twice + fury to stay long enough in meta so it lands before you exit meta.
Secondly, we use demonic fury for auras, for doom, for non-burst chaoswaves, for leap and for our knockback.

Not to mention that any warlock that is critting 200k with chaoswave is using grimoire of sacrifice for the +30% damage, so all you have to do is to kill the pet and force a demonic rebirth and after that, you just make him burn through his fury to resummon new pets.
If he's sacrificed his pet before the game started, he's bad and it's your own fault for letting him get fury since with sacrifice up, your fury generation is worthless.


Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSCdE...&feature=g-all, I don't see warlocks critting for 93 mil so...

[Phoenexis]

the passive +healing from fel armor alone is huge and nearly triples the potency of any healing done on you. thats pretty passive. any riptides, or miscellaneous druid hots that are ticking on you heals for a lot more. lets not get into the extra armor and hp that comes passive with it.....

and saying demo has ramp up time is an absolute lie. you can start with chaos waves pretty much right out of the gate and fury takes no effort to generate if you are managing your pets correctly.

what exactly do you do with your fury other then deal damage with it? a destro lock can heal himself with his embers, but a demo lock just deals damage with it. do you require fury to summon health stones? to lay portals? to fear people? to control your pet?

Summon pet, petswitch, Carrion Swarm, Demonic Leap, Auras, TP while in meta. You don't seem very well informed. Also, please tell me how you can throw off two chaos waves from the start if each wave costs 120 fury and you only begin with 200.

Also, how does +10% healing triple the amount of heals gained? I'd take 15% base damage reduction anytime.

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 07:21 PM ----------

Not this again. I'll reply the same way I already have - this is all theoretical bollocks, in a realistic 3v3 setting where both teams are equally skilled demo warlocks are still overpowered. It's not a learn to play issue, it's not something you can resolve by using one of the 50 random abilities you just mentioned in your post there, the game balance is flawed. I don't care what a hunter, paladin, DK or whatever other class can do to counter chaos wave, the core of the problem is that in an arena environment which is what Blizzard is (or at least should be) balancing their game around you won't have 10 thousand defensive cooldowns available to you at all times. You're not playing alone, the person you're facing isn't playing alone. Your defensive cooldowns gradually deteriorate as the game progresses because outside of cooldowns things still happen, surprisingly enough. You can't hog your stuff forever just waiting for the warlock to prepare his burst, that's not the way things work.

I can use the same "be good at the game and x won't happen" argument but sensibly, watch: no good warlock that knows his class well will ever pop their CW 1 shot unless a) they know they can force cds that are longer than their own, ergo 2 minutes, or b) they know they are very likely to get a kill. If they do it's a wasted and they either suck or made a mistake for whatever reason. I don't really understand why you'd mention stuff like grounding, cloak and spell reflects when they don't work against CW, which I believe is something you should by now know seeing as it's very likely you play a warlock else you wouldn't be in denial and vehemently defending them. This is why you obviously want to force shorter cds like PvP trinkets, astral shift, dispersion, deterrence and the likes before you pop it and only worry about getting the longer ones out of the way, such as bubble, SLT (which is more of a curse than it is a gift when the class killing you is AoEing your whole team), etc. This is how you win games at decent ratings and is obvious to everyone, it's one of the most basic things you learn when you try to PvP seriously and I'll get to it later again.

Surely there are other spells and classes that need fixing in terms of ginormous burst (mages and warriors, first and foremost), the game right now relies on damage cooldowns (and defensives accordingly) to a pretty pathetic extent. They were always a big part of the meta-game but now, at least at high ratings, no one kills anyone outside of cooldowns; healers don't go oom really, all you do is you pop offensives to force defensives from your opponents and then wait until you eventually kill them through it or they run out. At one point or another he's gonna deep into PoM bomb + CS me when I have no bubble/trinket and I'm dead, or the other guy's going to pop pet stun + CWs when I have no trinket or bubble and I'm dead again. Whatever classes have the strongest (read: dealing the most damage + being the most reliable, where warlocks win by far even over mages and warriors) offensives are the most viable in arena, which is what you can clearly see happening everywhere by just looking at class representation or playing a bunch of games above 2.2k or some rating.

Why do you think BM hunters have basically been obliterated off the face of the earth?

Let me start off by saying that I in no way would say that the spec is fine as it is.

Although I completely agree with you, you must take into consideration that Demonology's damage outside of Dark Soul is laughable, hence why normally, you shouldn't be using your defensive cooldowns against a Demonology warlock. However, it is happening, and I'd say it's because of the spec that's tagging along with the warlock, doing already insane damage and forcing you to turtle prematurely. As you've said, no good warlock would burst against a team with defensives up, aand no good player would want to use defensive abilities when the warlock isn't red yet, but they're forced to. I personally blame the whole MoP play-style in which even warlocks don't fit in well (more ramp up should equate to more damage, but more damage is already absurd in the current state of the game).

Also, I'd say demonology warlocks are so "strong" right now because many players don't know much about them yet. Just by reading the forums and even watching the battle.net tournament, I could see players making mistakes and not knowing how to counter properly. I'll also add that there's a very game-changing bug that makes the whole difference and allows you to easily counter a demonology warlock, and it's something even players in the battle'net championships didn't make use of.

[r3as0n]

I was in RBG with a 2300+ CR group and ran into Jahmilli tich horde and his rank one glad group who ran triple demo lock, mage, dk on eye of the storm. Lets just say that chaos wave x3 with all 2/2 elite upgrade is impossible to heal and ruins the game completely.

1. Dk Aoe Grip
2. Mage Ring of frost
3. Warlock x3 Chaos Wave gg

[Gatsu]

wow, +10% healing taken, 2.5k armor ( I have 15k armor, which is 25% dr) and 10% extra health makes us so overpowered. NOT!

Also, chaos wave costs 120 fury, you need 240 to cast it twice + fury to stay long enough in meta so it lands before you exit meta.
Secondly, we use demonic fury for auras, for doom, for non-burst chaoswaves, for leap and for our knockback.

Not to mention that any warlock that is critting 200k with chaoswave is using grimoire of sacrifice for the +30% damage, so all you have to do is to kill the pet and force a demonic rebirth and after that, you just make him burn through his fury to resummon new pets.
If he's sacrificed his pet before the game started, he's bad and it's your own fault for letting him get fury since with sacrifice up, your fury generation is worthless.


Also, http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PSCdE...&feature=g-all, I don't see warlocks critting for 93 mil so...

even without grimoire, it's an insane amount of damage that should never be possible to do in a single global.

also, are you defending the current state of locks by linking a Swifty video made in a wargame in a bg with fool moltipliers on damage done and received? really?

[Deleted]

As i pointed out in another thread. Warlocks are clearly insanely op if you look at ladder on one of the best battlegroups in EU.

7 warlocks.. wow... they are clearly overrepresented in high end arenas due to their OPness...

yeah..


no...

[Gatsu]

As i pointed out in another thread. Warlocks are clearly insanely op if you look at ladder on one of the best battlegroups in EU.

7 warlocks.. wow... they are clearly overrepresented in high end arenas due to their OPness...

yeah..


no...

did you watch the last tournament? where Snutz team (mage lock shaman) won every match (0 loss) with him oneshotting one of the enemies doing like double the damage of everyone else?

no, you clearly didn't.

do you watch high rated US players streaming? Nadagast, Beckinsalex? They are saying themselves that demo atm is broken and OP as hell.

also, ladders are not updated after 5.1, and btw representation alone doesn't mean that much, even less from a single battlegroup.

[Deleted]

Explain why there arent that many warlocks in the top then? Also warlocks were nerfed in 5.1 so if anything there should be even less warlocks now than pre-5.1.

Why arent there more locks if they are so insanely overpowered?

[Nicola]

did you watch the last tournament? where Snutz team (mage lock shaman) won every match (0 loss) with him oneshotting one of the enemies doing like double the damage of everyone else?

no, you clearly didn't.

do you watch high rated US players streaming? Nadagast, Beckinsalex? They are saying themselves that demo atm is broken and OP as hell.

also, ladders are not updated after 5.1, and btw representation alone doesn't mean that much, even less from a single battlegroup.

I cannot remember snutz oneshotting someone without venr helping in damage. Heck, if you paid attention you'd see that venruki actually did most damage while snutz was finishing off targets going sub 50% and punishing stacking with normal chaos waves.
They played near flawless, but just to say, they won several games because of damage, not because of actually killing.

Watching a tournament is one thing, paying attention is a different thing.

And it were 2 battlegroups, the 2 best battlegroups of eu and I'm fairly sure the eu ladders are actually updated, seeing the lack of hunters after 5.1.

[Gatsu]

Explain why there arent that many warlocks in the top then? Also warlocks were nerfed in 5.1 so if anything there should be even less warlocks now than pre-5.1.

Why arent there more locks if they are so insanely overpowered?

I'm not saying that Warlock as a class is overpowered, im saying that the opportunity to deal 200k+ damage in a single global is not defendable, like TfB Heroic strikes or Frost bomb.

Most of the classes that were on the top pre 5.1 were nerfed (hunters and warriors), so you will soon see Warlocks getting higher.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 03:19 AM ----------

I cannot remember snutz oneshotting someone without venr helping in damage. Heck, if you paid attention you'd see that venruki actually did most damage while snutz was finishing off targets going sub 50% and punishing stacking with normal chaos waves.
They played near flawless, but just to say, they won several games because of damage, not because of actually killing.

Watching a tournament is one thing, paying attention is a different thing.

And it were 2 battlegroups, the 2 best battlegroups of eu and I'm fairly sure the eu ladders are actually updated, seeing the lack of hunters after 5.1.

You're just dodging my point. Read my previous (merged now) post.

[corebit]

As i pointed out in another thread. Warlocks are clearly insanely op if you look at ladder on one of the best battlegroups in EU.

7 warlocks.. wow... they are clearly overrepresented in high end arenas due to their OPness...

yeah..


no...

Yup, even Veev said last night in his stream that Warlocks are pretty bad right now.

But it's pointless to argue with people who have an agenda to nerf X class. They just see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear and nothing else. They point at BWC even though Snutz was trained most of the time and did not put much pressure, and even the commentators said most of the damage was coming from Venruki.

[Rio]

Random double post is random.

[Gatsu]

Yup, even Veev said last night in his stream that Warlocks are pretty bad right now.

But it's pointless to argue with people who have an agenda to nerf X class. They just see what they want to see, and hear what they want to hear and nothing else. They point at BWC even though Snutz was trained most of the time and did not put much pressure, and even the commentators said most of the damage was coming from Venruki.

seems like the opposite to me, we are discussing about a broken ability, not the class as a whole. You just read what you want to read.

[corebit]

seems like the opposite to me, we are discussing about a broken ability, not the class as a whole. You just read what you want to read.

The ability is not broken. Its damage is on par with every other burst ability in the game right now plus it has pathetic critical chance and requires so much ramp up. That and its easily dodgeable.

And from GC's recent tweet I don't see anything that suggest the devs think its broken either. CW is not anything close to 1-shot. Anything close to 200K CW in arenas and damage over it is an extremely rare occurance and belongs mostly for entertainment purposes in videos (like what Swifty does).

Of course by lobbying to get CW nerfed you are breaking the class as a whole since Demo is the only viable lock spec in PVP (not even highly represented at that).