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  1. #1

    Carbuncle Upgraded vs Xuen non-upgraded?

    Simple question, I have Lei Shen's Final Orders upgraded 2/2 as one trinket and option should I wear Carbuncle Upgraded vs Xuen non-upgraded?

  2. #2
    High Overlord Taik's Avatar
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    Pretty sure the Relic of Xuen is still the better option

  3. #3
    I am TG warrior and my stat weights are following(Normalized stat weights): Str 1.0 and crit 1.09 so..

    Formula I'm using for trinkets procs are: (Proc stat * stat weight) / 100 * up-time =
    __________________________________

    Carbuncle:

    Proc: 3977,47 / 100 * 32 = 1274,79

    Static stat: 913 * 1 = 913

    Carbuncle has stats worth: 2187,79

    __________________________________

    DMF:


    Proc: 3299 / 100 * 33 = 1088,67

    Static Stat 956 * 1 = 956

    DMF has stats worth: 2044,67

    __________________________________

    If my math is bad im sorry for that but this should be close enough.

    TL;DR go for Carbuncle for __PURE SINGLE TARGET FIGHTS__

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Yiris View Post
    I am TG warrior and my stat weights are following(Normalized stat weights): Str 1.0 and crit 1.09 so..

    Formula I'm using for trinkets procs are: (Proc stat * stat weight) / 100 * up-time =
    __________________________________

    Carbuncle:

    Proc: 3977,47 / 100 * 32 = 1274,79

    Static stat: 913 * 1 = 913

    Carbuncle has stats worth: 2187,79

    __________________________________

    DMF:


    Proc: 3299 / 100 * 33 = 1088,67

    Static Stat 956 * 1 = 956

    DMF has stats worth: 2044,67

    __________________________________

    If my math is bad im sorry for that but this should be close enough.

    TL;DR go for Carbuncle for __PURE SINGLE TARGET FIGHTS__
    That's you though, and you're TG. I am SMF and my Str still sims higher than crit.

    If OP doesn't want to sim his stat himself, I'd suggest to upgrade Xuen, especially if you use Dragon Roar.

  5. #5
    If you line up your CDs with trinkets correctly and you also have final orders I would say Relic of Xuen is better. Both trinkets might be close since Crit has a high value, but providing the burst with both trinkets seem just better.

  6. #6
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yiris View Post
    I am TG warrior and my stat weights are following(Normalized stat weights): Str 1.0 and crit 1.09 so..

    Formula I'm using for trinkets procs are: (Proc stat * stat weight) / 100 * up-time =
    __________________________________

    Carbuncle:

    Proc: 3977,47 / 100 * 32 = 1274,79

    Static stat: 913 * 1 = 913

    Carbuncle has stats worth: 2187,79

    __________________________________

    DMF:


    Proc: 3299 / 100 * 33 = 1088,67

    Static Stat 956 * 1 = 956

    DMF has stats worth: 2044,67

    __________________________________

    If my math is bad im sorry for that but this should be close enough.

    TL;DR go for Carbuncle for __PURE SINGLE TARGET FIGHTS__
    Gota calc in more than just pure stat weight when calcing out procs.

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Darkfriend View Post
    Gota calc in more than just pure stat weight when calcing out procs.
    And by that you mean what?

    That's just how much stats proc gives out "passively" based on up-time and pure stat weight.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by spiattalo View Post
    That's you though, and you're TG. I am SMF and my Str still sims higher than crit.
    Strength always will sim higher than crit, no matter the spec. The only reason crit > strength is because on gems there is double the amount of crit than a primary stat. So if strength sims at say 2.5 and crit is at 1.5, crit > strength because 1.5x2=3. 3> 2.5.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Laundry View Post
    Strength always will sim higher than crit, no matter the spec. The only reason crit > strength is because on gems there is double the amount of crit than a primary stat. So if strength sims at say 2.5 and crit is at 1.5, crit > strength because 1.5x2=3. 3> 2.5.
    That is only for GEMS, in gear like trinkets above its different story, for example currently TG prefers crit over str on gear but SMF prefers STR over crit on gear, both specs socket currently crit tho.

    EDIT: few words.

  10. #10
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yiris View Post
    And by that you mean what?

    That's just how much stats proc gives out "passively" based on up-time and pure stat weight.
    Because a 3k strength proc during a skull banner is worth more than a 3k str proc without any CDs up. You need to math out how they line up with CDs based on uptime and ICDs. For a better, more mathed out explanation look at this. http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/to...22?page=39#768. I'll copy/paste it here.


    1152 Str
    3838 crit use, 15 second uptime, minute Cd. (25% uptime)

    1152 + (3838*.25*.8) = 1919

    However, this evaluation is not perfect as it doesn't take into account how the trinket functions with our cooldowns. Some trinkets are very good at lining up with cooldowns, (This trinket is actually perfect at it), while others are awful, such as the coaster. The only way to deal with this is to use probabilities, and it can get pretty damn complex, in which it's better to just use a simulator to see which is better.

    Also, you have to take into consideration stat value inflation. Eventually, crit will be worth 0.9 instead of 0.8 and it will push it ahead of the relic.

    But, even in this case, your BIS trinkets will end up being Heroic Lei Shin's and 5.1 trinket, not Relic and 5.1 Trinket.

    If you want to know how to do probabilities. Take into account how often the trinket lines up perfectly with colossus smash and bloodbath.

    5.1 Trinket. Minute CD and CLICKABLE. Which means it will always line up perfectly with colossus smash and bloodbath, whom give a 40% and 22% damage bonus, or 70% overall.

    However, colossus smash only lasts 6 seconds, and bloodbath only 12.

    So, for 6 seconds you get 70%, then 22% for 6, then normal proc for 3.
    0.4*(3070*1.7)+
    0.4*(3070*1.22)+
    0.2*(3070*0.8)

    2087 + 1498 + 491 = 4097

    Then take that number and multiply it by overall uptime, or .25, and you end up with 1024, then added to the base strength...

    5.1 Trinket's Overall SEP Value: 2176

    This makes the 5.1 trinket overall better than the relic of Xuen, as there's no way that the relic will be able to line up better with cooldowns.

    However, is it better than Heroic Lei Shin's?

    Heroic Lei Shin's
    487 crit
    731 haste
    3653 Str proc, 45 second cooldown, 20 second uptime. 44% uptime overall.

    (487 * 0.8) + (731 * 0.25) = 572

    So the trinket proc needs to be worth at least 1604 in order to be better than the 5.1 trinket.

    Taking a normal 6 minute length fight, lei shins will most likely only line up with bloodbath 3 times. However, it will line up with colossus smash every time due to the proc lasting 20 seconds.

    So that means half of the time it lines up with bloodbath, and 100% of the time it lines up with colossus smash.

    0.5*0.3*(3653*1.4)+
    0.5*0.3*(3653)+
    0.5*0.3*(3653*1.7) +
    0.5*0.3*(3653*1.22)+
    0.4*(3653)

    (767 + 547 + 931 + 668 + 1461)*.44 = 1924

    So heroic lei shins has an overall SEP value of 2496, making it THE BIS trinket.


    NOW this is talking about 2 specific other trinkets, however the math is fairly similar.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Yiris View Post
    I am TG warrior and my stat weights are following(Normalized stat weights): Str 1.0 and crit 1.09 so..

    Formula I'm using for trinkets procs are: (Proc stat * stat weight) / 100 * up-time =
    __________________________________

    Carbuncle:

    Proc: 3977,47 / 100 * 32 = 1274,79

    Static stat: 913 * 1 = 913

    Carbuncle has stats worth: 2187,79

    __________________________________

    DMF:


    Proc: 3299 / 100 * 33 = 1088,67

    Static Stat 956 * 1 = 956

    DMF has stats worth: 2044,67

    __________________________________

    If my math is bad im sorry for that but this should be close enough.

    TL;DR go for Carbuncle for __PURE SINGLE TARGET FIGHTS__
    Just out of curiousity could you sim yourself again but this time use the numbers you have while procced... So standard values and then add the clsoe to 4k crit and tell me how much your crit is worth.

    Im jsut interested if the procc is up that will somehow reduce the SEP of crit :/

  12. #12
    what about CCCC vs upgraded carbuncle?

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Joemeatballs View Post
    what about CCCC vs upgraded carbuncle?
    CCCC is worse than a non-upgraded carbuncle.

  14. #14
    I currently have the option of using (LFR 476) Lei'shin or (Normal 496) Darkmist Vortex. I really feel the passive strength from darkmist is good, but the haste proc is obviously not great.

    Could somoene back me up with some math in thinking that DV still beats LFR Lei'Shin?

    carbuncle & normal lei shin has not dropped for me, and now that i got DV i dont feel like farming carbuncle anymore...

  15. #15
    CCCC 470 or LFR 476 Lei Shin's Final Orders? Not quite sure about this...

  16. #16
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    never take CCCC, LFR is better.

    CCCC is basicly the worse trinket we could use due the proc beeing crap.
    Changed myself from CCCC to CC upgraded due unlucky with other trinkets. (got relic)

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooshke View Post
    never take CCCC, LFR is better.

    CCCC is basicly the worse trinket we could use due the proc beeing crap.
    Changed myself from CCCC to CC upgraded due unlucky with other trinkets. (got relic)
    Aha... Why is the proc so crappy exactly? I don't really know so I am just curious about it's nature :P

    Otherwise I am Fury TG since I didn't make it clear before, I have CC upgraded and CCCC, Just got Lei Shen from LFR, so I should use Lei Shen instead even though I lose a ton of crit?

  18. #18
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    Yeah, CC will actually result in a 967 passive crit which is higher then CCCC
    more info in the link

    source: http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/1211004-Trinkets

  19. #19
    Herald of the Titans Darkfriend's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Laundry View Post
    Strength always will sim higher than crit, no matter the spec. The only reason crit > strength is because on gems there is double the amount of crit than a primary stat. So if strength sims at say 2.5 and crit is at 1.5, crit > strength because 1.5x2=3. 3> 2.5.
    I don't think you understand what SEP is. If the SEP of 1 crit is 1, it means 1 crit is equal to 1 strength. Anytime the SEP of a stat is over .5, it's better to gem that stat instead of pure strength.

  20. #20
    I would say the best trinks are:

    If you have access to Heroic will, then --> H Lei Shei + DMF
    If you do not have access to H-Will then > 5.1 trink + DMF

    My reasoning is: Even though 5.1 trink is better than DMF, the uptick does not justify 1) the 1750 VP cost, or falling behind from 3 ilvl upgrades 2) having to manage 2 use procs since most Warriors go Engy.

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