1. #1

    How to beat War/DK

    Hey guys
    So I've been starting on arenas, I'm Demo, I've been watching some vids and I'm pretty sure I know how to play decently. I'm able to pull of some decent cc chains with my buddy (a holy pala) being able to win almost all healer+dps arenas. Problem is were now stuck at 1500 rating (noobs, I know) Cause I just get blown up by most DK+War comps, and those are really common so as much as were able to win vs most other comps we're being held back by them bursting noobs that have no skill and just spam oneshot macros... I've got full pvp gear (including weap) so that isn't the problem.

    So when the arena starts, I put my portal behind a pillar, go out in the open (so as to get some distance from the portal, to gain more time when I use it), pop imps, enfeeblement on both, , corruption, then when they start bursting, I pop sac pact, DR+HS, TW to absorb some magical damage from the DK, and then unending resolve, basically everything, and I still die everytime because my healer cant get enough heals in since I die really fast or he's cc'd most of the time... He's a good player so I don't think that's the problem. I also use fear ou the dk, mortal coil on the warr, WG's stun on one of them, but they still manage to burst me down...
    Anything I could do different? Any tips would be welcome.

  2. #2
    In 2v2 there will always be a comp or two that beats yours
    Quote Originally Posted by kasath
    is anyone in this group under 18? my parole officer says I'm not allowed to play wow with anyone under 18

  3. #3
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    So when the arena starts, I put my portal behind a pillar, go out in the open (so as to get some distance from the portal, to gain more time when I use it), pop imps, enfeeblement on both, , corruption, then when they start bursting, I pop sac pact, DR+HS, TW to absorb some magical damage from the DK, and then unending resolve, basically everything, and I still die everytime because my healer cant get enough heals in since I die really fast or he's cc'd most of the time... He's a good player so I don't think that's the problem. I also use fear ou the dk, mortal coil on the warr, WG's stun on one of them, but they still manage to burst me down...
    This is what I can think of:

    1) If your healer gets Clemency, then he can bop you every 2:30 (roughly). If I remember right (I'm not that familiar with melee), Avatar is a 3 minute CD, Recklessness is a 5 minute CD, so you're covered well there. The tradeoff is that his bubble is on a longer cooldown, and to be frank, I think he has less ways of getting away from the warrior/DK than you do, so it's actually more dangerous if they swap him. Even if he opts for unbreakable spirit for his own survivability, he can still bop you every recklessness.

    Since bop lasts 10 seconds, with avatar 24 and recklessness 12/18, you should have a plan to cover the remaining CD's with your own abilities. Notice also while bopped you can freecast (I'm not sure if the DK can mind freeze you though as it is frost and not physical ability, he definitely can strangulate you, so you might have to juke him) so you can fear/etc. to set up for the remaining bit of cooldowns.

    2) WG stun the DK, mortal coil the warrior (but he will trinket it), so use that as a heal. You can try to force berserker rage, but it's only a 30 second cooldown.

    3) Try to be in a demon form through their burst (imps will give you fury), that way you have a TON of armor compared to otherwise (demon form = plate armor, without it = shitty cloth armor). You also get a knockback. After their CD's are up you can probably get enough DF for a burst (save offensive CD's) before they can get their CD's up, notice imps is less than a 2 min CD with haste.

    4) I haven't done that much PvP this season so maybe I'm completely completely wrong, but with lock/hpaladin versus 2 melee, the paladin sounds like the more attractive kill target to me.

  4. #4
    Of course there is, I'm just asking my fellow locks for tips against this comp and their experience on it.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    Hey guys
    So I've been starting on arenas, I'm Demo, I've been watching some vids and I'm pretty sure I know how to play decently. I'm able to pull of some decent cc chains with my buddy (a holy pala) being able to win almost all healer+dps arenas. Problem is were now stuck at 1500 rating (noobs, I know) Cause I just get blown up by most DK+War comps, and those are really common so as much as were able to win vs most other comps we're being held back by them bursting noobs that have no skill and just spam oneshot macros... I've got full pvp gear (including weap) so that isn't the problem.

    So when the arena starts, I put my portal behind a pillar, go out in the open (so as to get some distance from the portal, to gain more time when I use it), pop imps, enfeeblement on both, , corruption, then when they start bursting, I pop sac pact, DR+HS, TW to absorb some magical damage from the DK, and then unending resolve, basically everything, and I still die everytime because my healer cant get enough heals in since I die really fast or he's cc'd most of the time... He's a good player so I don't think that's the problem. I also use fear ou the dk, mortal coil on the warr, WG's stun on one of them, but they still manage to burst me down...
    Anything I could do different? Any tips would be welcome.
    A good player is not CC'd all the time.

    Especially not against DK/Warrior. He needs to give you hand of protection when warrior pops cooldowns and then you LoS kite shattering throw. Your main target should be the DK and you control the warrior as much as possible (fears, stuns, repentance..). Paladin can also give Hand of sacrifice to reduce damage..

    Don't blame them for playing it right and trying to global you because in fact, you have the stronger comp by far. You should not die through all the defensive stuff you have so fast that you can't kill the DK before it.
    Last edited by Thes; 2012-12-02 at 03:59 PM.

  6. #6
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Oh, also forgot, I'm going to guess your paladin should save trinket for Strangulate (if he is CC'ed). You should save yours after bop falls to get away for the last secs of their CD's.

  7. #7
    i dont know.. u say u place portal..but then u just run out and cast imps etc n die? whats up w/ porting behind pillar..?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 08:05 AM ----------

    shadowfury? axetoss ? coil/fear? i just dont wanna be a jerk.. but what it sounds like, is that u run out into the open..stand there.. get dub mauled.. struggle to cast def. cd's.. die. this is quite suicidal.. why bother w/ defensive cd's? just /derp

  8. #8
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Thes View Post
    A good player is not CC'd all the time.

    Especially not against DK/Warrior. He needs to give you hand of protection when warrior pops cooldowns and then you LoS kite shattering throw. Your main target should be the DK and you control the warrior as much as possible (fears, stuns, repentance..). Paladin can also give Hand of sacrifice to reduce damage..

    Don't blame them for playing it right and trying to global you because in fact, you have the stronger comp by far. You should not die through all the defensive stuff you have so fast that you can't kill the DK before it.
    Icy touch dispels hand of protection.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    Icy touch dispels hand of protection.
    I'm well aware.
    It also means the DK can't burst as much for at least 5 seconds.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by voidspark View Post
    This is what I can think of:

    1) If your healer gets Clemency, then he can bop you every 2:30 (roughly). If I remember right (I'm not that familiar with melee), Avatar is a 3 minute CD, Recklessness is a 5 minute CD, so you're covered well there. The tradeoff is that his bubble is on a longer cooldown, and to be frank, I think he has less ways of getting away from the warrior/DK than you do, so it's actually more dangerous if they swap him. Even if he opts for unbreakable spirit for his own survivability, he can still bop you every recklessness.

    Since bop lasts 10 seconds, with avatar 24 and recklessness 12/18, you should have a plan to cover the remaining CD's with your own abilities. Notice also while bopped you can freecast (I'm not sure if the DK can mind freeze you though as it is frost and not physical ability, he definitely can strangulate you, so you might have to juke him) so you can fear/etc. to set up for the remaining bit of cooldowns.

    2) WG stun the DK, mortal coil the warrior (but he will trinket it), so use that as a heal. You can try to force berserker rage, but it's only a 30 second cooldown.

    3) Try to be in a demon form through their burst (imps will give you fury), that way you have a TON of armor compared to otherwise (demon form = plate armor, without it = shitty cloth armor). You also get a knockback. After their CD's are up you can probably get enough DF for a burst (save offensive CD's) before they can get their CD's up, notice imps is less than a 2 min CD with haste.

    4) I haven't done that much PvP this season so maybe I'm completely completely wrong, but with lock/hpaladin versus 2 melee, the paladin sounds like the more attractive kill target to me.
    The paladin is never the main target with these comps, they can put out so much damage with cds that they can kill me really really fast so they end up with a harmless pala vs the 2 of them... I hadn't thought about the nether plating passive and always tended to stay in caster form during burst (so as to save up fury) but the armor increase seems like a huge help whenever Colossus smash isn't up, thanks for that tip it'll help alot. I'll also speak with my healer about that talent.

    Thes, sometimes even a good player will suffer cc chains, I know how it is, in fact my gamestyle against healer+dps consists on me being able to pull a decent chain to keep either the dps or healer useless while I burst the other down, and if done correctly there's nothing you can do. CC's are on 30 sec CD's and DR's at most, and most anti-CC abilities are on a 2min CD at least. I'm not saying he's the best but he's good. I do always kill the DK first when I do survive the burst, I touch of chaos when I pop cd's until the war pops spell reflect, then get them both together and aoe with chaos wave. I have no problem whatsoever killing them or in 1on1, the real problem is surviving their CD burst

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 04:27 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by negatron View Post
    i dont know.. u say u place portal..but then u just run out and cast imps etc n die? whats up w/ porting behind pillar..?

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 08:05 AM ----------

    shadowfury? axetoss ? coil/fear? i just dont wanna be a jerk.. but what it sounds like, is that u run out into the open..stand there.. get dub mauled.. struggle to cast def. cd's.. die. this is quite suicidal.. why bother w/ defensive cd's? just /derp
    Of course I use portal and kite around the pillar, I didn't mention that because I thought it was obvious enough. Also, I'm playing against classes with 2x Death Grip and 2x charge, so going out in the open and then porting behind pillar is the best when to get some breathing room and extra distance before I get charged and DG'ed again. Also, I did mention I MC and axe toss them both, with some fears thrown out meanwhile. Please read and think before posting like a jerk.

  11. #11
    Field Marshal Redversion's Avatar
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    If they are not charging you straight off the start (which they should) then get a demonic gateway up. Remember as demo you can use your teleport ability twice, once outside of meta, once inside of meta. Use carrion swarm frequently, especially if you are on z-axis maps.

    You should not lose to this comp. If you really are struggling with this, I would advise for you to record a game, or even better have your paladin friend record.

  12. #12
    Scarab Lord nightfalls's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    The paladin is never the main target with these comps, they can put out so much damage with cds that they can kill me really really fast so they end up with a harmless pala vs the 2 of them...
    Are you sure? I'd assume the paladin is quite easier to kill for them (I might be completely wrong if a 2000+ player can explain why). YOU have:

    1) 2-3 defensive cooldowns
    2) Sacrifice and BOP from the paladin
    3) Heals from the paladin, so they have to CC him as well
    4) Portal
    5) Demonic Leap
    6) Knockbacks

    Meanwhile, the paladin has Divine Protection and Bubble, and that's it. Also has no escape mechanisms. And you obviously can't heal for the paladin, and aside from pet stun have few/no viable CC against a warrior/DK (both immune to fear), so they don't even need to keep you on lockdown 100%. Let alone run around stunning you both. If they kill a paladin just as quickly, you're quite harmless without healing versus half of one of them, let alone two.

    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    I hadn't thought about the nether plating passive and always tended to stay in caster form during burst (so as to save up fury) but the armor increase seems like a huge help whenever Colossus smash isn't up, thanks for that tip it'll help alot. I'll also speak with my healer about that talent.
    I mean, 250% armor is 250% armor, even with CS up (pretty sure CS is still only 50% armor reduction in PvP).

    Quote Originally Posted by ykza View Post
    Of course I use portal and kite around the pillar, I didn't mention that because I thought it was obvious enough. Also, I'm playing against classes with 2x Death Grip and 2x charge, so going out in the open and then porting behind pillar is the best when to get some breathing room and extra distance before I get charged and DG'ed again. Also, I did mention I MC and axe toss them both, with some fears thrown out meanwhile. Please read and think before posting like a jerk.
    This is the problem with going out in the open, once you get charged you'll be CC'ed and can't port unless you burn trinket.

    As the guy mentioned (something I forgot when I made my first post) the DK can icy touch-purge your BOP, so make sure he is CC'ed and pillared while you have it. Once its about to expire it's fine, because if he takes a second off of it but wastes a frost rune it's probably his loss more than yours. The warrior can't shatter (or do much of anything) about your BOP though.

  13. #13
    Maybe the pala is easier, you have a point, but the thing is, if they let me loose, I can kill them both really quickly once I pop my cd's, and that's always what happens if they go for the pala first, so they just decide to go for me since a 2v1 is much easier against a healer than a lock with chaos waves on two melees. Also going into the open is just a means of getting more distance from the portal. I'm always gonna get CC'ed and charged and if I'm already at 30yards from the portal, then I get some more breathing room.
    Anyways, today I used some of the tips here and they helped me out alot, thanks guys!

  14. #14
    Paladins have instants for days, he should max range the warrior and dk easily. When they pop cds use your defensive cool downs. You guys actually have a retarded amount of defensive cool downs to be honest. Kill the death knight they are really squishy when anti magic shell is down. If your paladin is cc'd all day by that comp his positioning is bad and he needs to work on it. He should be as far as possible and you shouldn't force him into to spot where he can get cc'd. Record a match versus them next time so we can see what your doing wrong.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 02:48 AM ----------

    Paladins are a hard kill for a 1500 team because they can heal themselves to full in 2 globals at 1500 is much easier to just tunnel the lock all game, you don't have to think at all.
    Last edited by worsthitmanNa; 2012-12-03 at 02:50 AM.
    You're right except for 2 things.

    1. My name is spelt "God" not "Loucious-sama".
    2. I'm not a man, because man is inherently flawed. I am in fact a being so far beyond your comprehension that archaic constraints like flesh, blood, time and consequently, gender, have no meaning to me.

  15. #15
    Pally should be out of charge/grip range and mounted until they engage you. Pop your bubble as soon as War goes reck, have your pally bop you as soon as your bubble fades. Dump all your damage into the DK - he will fall over after ams. By the time youre getting bopped you have enough fury to meta CD and between bop and UR they cant stop you from CWing. Down goes DK.

    Other odds and ends...

    1) Pally can bubble to run in and Stun/Blinding/Repent the warr whenever he wants if youre the target.
    2) Axe toss DK during AMS
    3) Imps instantly for DF (pref at range so they dont get HB cleaved) then CoW x2 your first 3 spells after portal.
    4) Felstorm as soon as they connect for free cleave dmg and Fury.
    5) Roll HS/DR during or just after BoP if needed.
    6) Portal as soon as you don't have a CD available.

  16. #16
    Field Marshal Redversion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pokeadott View Post
    4) Felstorm as soon as they connect for free cleave dmg and Fury.
    This is a common misconception. Felstorm generates ZERO fury. It also means your legion strike MS debuff will fall off the targets (unless you cancel the felstorm early).

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