1. #1

    Some noob feral questions(some pvp related)

    I started leveling my druid from 85 to 90 and plan to pvp as feral(kitty). Have a few questions that if anyone could answer would be great

    1) Why do the tooltips for "dash" and "stampeding roar" say they break snares/roots when shapeshifting does that anyway? I guess it's nice not having to always shift but it's nearly instant anyway.

    2) If we're just talking about CP regen, is hate or crit better(the extra CP from crits)?

    3) After doing some napkin math with mangle and shred I'm wondering what's the point of shred?
    mangle tooltip - 500% dmg(35 energy) - 500/35=14.3 dmg/energy
    shred tooltip - 500% dmg+20% on bleeding(40 energy) - 500*1.2=600/40=15 dmg/energy

    So that's less than 5% additional damage per energy, and that's without factoring in the greater CP regen from mangle, thus making them virtually even. Am I missing something?

    4) Savage Roar glyph - It feels great for openers, but after the opener it just feels inadequate for keeping SR up. Any of you PvP ferals actually finding this useful? I've been using it in BGs while leveling but I think I'd rather replace it for another glyph and use higher CP SR's(and I guess it becomes a question of what's starving us? energy or cp? it costs over 4x energy per minute to keep up SR glyphed SR than just applying it with 5 CP)

    5) First tier of talents - I'm going to assume every feral takes wild charge? I did some experimenting with displacer beast and really enjoyed it for getting a the cheap stun from pounce, but dots sometimes break the stealth before even getting the pounce off :/

    6) Do we not need mangle before bleeds anymore? I don't remember hearing about that debuff being taken away ><

    7) Is it worth pooling the extra 25 energy for a +100% dmg FB?

    8) Anyone know of a good (updated) feral pvp guide?

    Thanks!
    Last edited by Mooji; 2012-12-01 at 12:34 PM.

  2. #2
    Pandaren Monk Moosie's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2011
    Location
    England
    Posts
    1,903
    1) I don't pvp often but I can see the point of dash, saves you having to power shift (if that still exists) and if you get snared, normally the target will run away, be a nice way to not only break snare, but get close to them (If charge is on CD)

    2) Crit, haste really doesn't provide us much at this point in the game, later on, in T16 etc we'll have so much crit by default that haste might turn out better, but for the moment, crit.

    3) Shred does 20% more damage on bleeding targets.

    4) I find it useless when I find myself in a situation when everything is about to fall off, rip has 4 secs and SR is about to fall off, i'll use it in those emergency situations. DPS loss or not It's good to have.

    5) I take wild charge because I find myself needing to get from 1 place to the next, as fast as possible, Charge grants me this ability. It's dependant on your play style, some use Felines swiftness, some don't.

    6) No bleed debuff from mangle anymore.

    7) I can't really answer this one, I personally don't use many FBs out of a burst phase anyway, in which my energy is almost topped anyway so its almost always 100% but sub 25%, it's an increase no matter on energy to proc blood in the water to refresh rip.

    8) http://www.mmo-champion.com/threads/...vE-guide-5-0-5
    Moosie <After Hours> : Feral / Restoration

  3. #3
    1) Why do the tooltips for "dash" and "stampeding roar" say they break snares/roots when shapeshifting does that anyway? I guess it's nice not having to always shift but it's nearly instant anyway.

    They made those two skills brake snares back in cataclysm when blizz decided ferals were too hard for mages to kill and removed their ability to break roots with shapeshift.

    2) If we're just talking about CP regen, is hate or crit better(the extra CP from crits)?

    Im guessing you are talking about energy regen because there is no such thing as combo point regeneration.

    Haste is good for energy regen but crit and mastery is your best stats after agility.


    3) After doing some napkin math with mangle and shred I'm wondering what's the point of shred?
    mangle tooltip - 500% dmg(35 energy) - 500/35=14.3 dmg/energy
    shred tooltip - 500% dmg+20% on bleeding(40 energy) - 500*1.2=600/40=15 dmg/energy

    So that's less than 5% additional damage per energy, and that's without factoring in the greater CP regen from mangle, thus making them virtually even. Am I missing something?

    Shred makes your rip up to three times longer and also hits harder on bleeding targets as the tooltip clearly says.

    4) Savage Roar glyph - It feels great for openers, but after the opener it just feels inadequate for keeping SR up. Any of you PvP ferals actually finding this useful? I've been using it in BGs while leveling but I think I'd rather replace it for another glyph and use higher CP SR's(and I guess it becomes a question of what's starving us? energy or cp? it costs over 4x energy per minute to keep up SR glyphed SR than just applying it with 5 CP)

    This is mandatory for keeping savage roar up at all times without using combopoints that is vital for bleeds and other things.

    5) First tier of talents - I'm going to assume every feral takes wild charge? I did some experimenting with displacer beast and really enjoyed it for getting a the cheap stun from pounce, but dots sometimes break the stealth before even getting the pounce off :/

    Wild Charge is mandatory for pvp since you get a "heroic leap", blink, intervene, charge-root. There is no reason NOT to take this.

    6) Do we not need mangle before bleeds anymore? I don't remember hearing about that debuff being taken away ><

    Im not sure about this one but im pretty sure that all attacks cause the slow right now.

    7) Is it worth pooling the extra 25 energy for a +100% dmg FB?

    Ferocious Bite should never be used in pvp unless you are 100% sure it will kill the target.
    5 combopoints is better for full rip or full maim or even emergency savage roar for an instant clone/heal/root.


    8) Anyone know of a good (updated) feral pvp guide?

    I dont think there is currently any updated feral guides around. CHeck out skill-capped.com they might have something.



    Hope it helped!

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by saltyharbls View Post
    They made those two skills brake snares back in cataclysm when blizz decided ferals were too hard for mages to kill and removed their ability to break roots with shapeshift.
    I remember this change, but I was doing some testing at level 85 and shifts were removing all snares and roots. I was more or less surprised by it happening and just wanted to confirm ><

    Quote Originally Posted by saltyharbls View Post
    Im guessing you are talking about energy regen because there is no such thing as combo point regeneration.

    Haste is good for energy regen but crit and mastery is your best stats after agility.
    I actually was talking about CP generation, but my wording was unclear. Let's say you have 25% crit. That means 1 in 4 CP generators give you an extra CP via crit. Now let's say you take the same haste rating it took to get the extra crit, and put that into haste. Which would result in more net combo points? I ask this because from my past experience(which dates back to wotlk lol) having extra CP was always very valuable, even sometimes at a sacrifice to extra damage.

    Quote Originally Posted by saltyharbls View Post
    Shred makes your rip up to three times longer and also hits harder on bleeding targets as the tooltip clearly says.
    according to the tooltips both mangle and shred increase the duration of rip, and according to the tooltips mangle is 500% dmg, shred is 500%+20%. That puts shred only 20% ahead of mangle, but shred costs almost 16% more energy, so to me given the positional requirements of shred that almost makes them a wash, but I feel like I'm missing something. I always thought the positional requirement of shred was a feral keystone.

    Quote Originally Posted by saltyharbls View Post
    This is mandatory for keeping savage roar up at all times without using combopoints that is vital for bleeds and other things.
    The main issue I run into with relying on 0 cp SR's is that if my target gets away from me before I have 5 CP up I end up not having SR up for the rip application, but SR doesn't affect rip or rake anyway right?

    Quote Originally Posted by saltyharbls View Post
    Ferocious Bite should never be used in pvp unless you are 100% sure it will kill the target.
    5 combopoints is better for full rip or full maim or even emergency savage roar for an instant clone/heal/root.
    Yeah I was thinking a 5-cp maim was better than an FB but not sure.

    Quote Originally Posted by saltyharbls View Post
    I dont think there is currently any updated feral guides around. CHeck out skill-capped.com they might have something.

    Hope it helped!
    Thanks for the responses, and skill-capped is extremely useful, best source I've seen by far!

  5. #5
    according to the tooltips both mangle and shred increase the duration of rip, and according to the tooltips mangle is 500% dmg, shred is 500%+20%. That puts shred only 20% ahead of mangle, but shred costs almost 16% more energy, so to me given the positional requirements of shred that almost makes them a wash, but I feel like I'm missing something. I always thought the positional requirement of shred was a feral keystone.

    Checked out the tooltip. They all do indeed extend rips duration. Regarding the 20% extra damage, its a 20% extra damage. What is there not to like?
    I usually just use it to get 20% extra damage + 15% extra from tigers fury while applying rake and extended rip. You should use ravage as much as possible
    when going for the kill and with berserk, incarnation and nature's vigil ofcourse.


    The main issue I run into with relying on 0 cp SR's is that if my target gets away from me before I have 5 CP up I end up not having SR up for the rip application, but SR doesn't affect rip or rake anyway right?

    Plan ahead and practise making your SR last during all your bleed-applications. Savage Roar should be up ALWAYS.
    Keeping SR up 100% is vital since it enhances ALL your damage by 30%. Mangle, shreds, ravages, bleeds Everything.

  6. #6
    Oh I thought bleeds didn't count as physical damage...guess I'll have to lab it some to know for sure

  7. #7
    IMHO.. shred is more for pve, where you can spend a lot of time behind the bosses. I don´t pvp, but if I did, I would just use mangle as it would be too hard to keep track of which button to push with constantly moving targets. Basically the damage gain you get by using shred would probably be more than offset by the amount of times you got ´you must be behind your target´.. message.

  8. #8
    High Overlord Astronomy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2009
    Location
    İstanbul
    Posts
    163
    Quote Originally Posted by Mooji View Post
    1) Why do the tooltips for "dash" and "stampeding roar" say they break snares/roots when shapeshifting does that anyway? I guess it's nice not having to always shift but it's nearly instant anyway.
    That tooltip has been added to dash last expansion after they removed power shifting. I guess they forgot to change tooltip on dash But about roar, it means it removes your allies' roots/snares too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooji View Post
    3) After doing some napkin math with mangle and shred I'm wondering what's the point of shred?
    People always think position requirement of shred is a con, but I actually think its a pro. You should be running most of the time for landing successful shreds; which means they cannot be dodged or parried in pvp. Mangle's damage has been increased nearly to shred's for situations that you cannot really get your opponent's behind.

    And do not underestimate that 0,7 difference since your calculation was percentage wise, it is actually bigger numbers in reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooji View Post
    4) Savage Roar glyph - It feels great for openers, but after the opener it just feels inadequate for keeping SR up. Any of you PvP ferals actually finding this useful? I've been using it in BGs while leveling but I think I'd rather replace it for another glyph and use higher CP SR's(and I guess it becomes a question of what's starving us? energy or cp? it costs over 4x energy per minute to keep up SR glyphed SR than just applying it with 5 CP)
    I find that glyph quite useful myself. Not only while pre-opening, you can actually renew your SR during a fight without using CPs too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooji View Post
    5) First tier of talents - I'm going to assume every feral takes wild charge? I did some experimenting with displacer beast and really enjoyed it for getting a the cheap stun from pounce, but dots sometimes break the stealth before even getting the pounce off :/
    First tier is mostly about play-style, i prefer wild charge for bear charge's immobilize which is a great skill especially in arena for kiting (bear charge, travel form and run). Also for travel form's charge, it works great to charge behind a pillar for LoS in arenas. If they remove bear's immobilizing I'd probably respec to 15% run speed increase.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mooji View Post
    6) Do we not need mangle before bleeds anymore? I don't remember hearing about that debuff being taken away ><
    Nope.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mooji View Post
    7) Is it worth pooling the extra 25 energy for a +100% dmg FB?
    FB is the most fail ability in the game. It has some serious maths problems since it can hit as low as 9k. You can stop using it imho.

  9. #9
    Thanks for the answers Astronomy ~~ I've had my suspicions FB is terrible lol, but wasn't sure. But if that's the case where do I throw those extra CPs? Just into extra mangles/shreds or maims? Need to find my user info for the elitistjerks forum but going to post there about mangle vs shred. Unless I'm missing something they're within 5% in terms of efficiency, which imo is reason enough to just mangle in pvp.

  10. #10
    Okay, since there are some really terrible answers in this thread, I thought I might contribute. I play feral as my main, and while not being ultimately good with it, my current experience in 1,9k still weights a lot more than those, who don't even play feral.

    1) Why do the tooltips for "dash" and "stampeding roar" say they break snares/roots when shapeshifting does that anyway? I guess it's nice not having to always shift but it's nearly instant anyway.

    As stated, Stampeding also removes roots from your team mates. Especially warriors appreciate it. Aslo, Dash isn't on GCD. Makes it a lot more valuable to use while bursting and not wanting to lose that one second.

    2) If we're just talking about CP regen, is hate or crit better(the extra CP from crits)?

    Crit. Most players go currently mastery>crit, avoiding haste. Mastery brings more sustained damage, Crit is a lot better while bursting with cooldowns.

    3) After doing some napkin math with mangle and shred I'm wondering what's the point of shred?
    mangle tooltip - 500% dmg(35 energy) - 500/35=14.3 dmg/energy
    shred tooltip - 500% dmg+20% on bleeding(40 energy) - 500*1.2=600/40=15 dmg/energy

    So that's less than 5% additional damage per energy, and that's without factoring in the greater CP regen from mangle, thus making them virtually even. Am I missing something?

    Not missing anything.

    4) Savage Roar glyph - It feels great for openers, but after the opener it just feels inadequate for keeping SR up. Any of you PvP ferals actually finding this useful? I've been using it in BGs while leveling but I think I'd rather replace it for another glyph and use higher CP SR's(and I guess it becomes a question of what's starving us? energy or cp? it costs over 4x energy per minute to keep up SR glyphed SR than just applying it with 5 CP)

    In most situations you are not able to "just keep Savage Roar up", so this glyph helps a lot. You don't want to use a single skill without having Savage Roar. You want to apply a 5 combo Savage Roar when possible, given that it doesn't still have 20s+ or so duration left. Remember that it also gives you a free instant cyclone/root.

    5) First tier of talents - I'm going to assume every feral takes wild charge? I did some experimenting with displacer beast and really enjoyed it for getting a the cheap stun from pounce, but dots sometimes break the stealth before even getting the pounce off :/

    Wild charge is better with half the cooldown, but if you get focused a lot you might want to try Displacer, since it's basically a reset after you have gotten behind a pillar with your healer.

    6) Do we not need mangle before bleeds anymore? I don't remember hearing about that debuff being taken away ><

    As stated: no.

    7) Is it worth pooling the extra 25 energy for a +100% dmg FB?

    Yes, use FB with >/=60 energy. I don't know what the hell are people trying to tell you, but your burst rotation is mainly Ravage (70k) x3, FB (120k), Ravage... Although, outside of cooldowns it hits like a wet noodle and unless you are executing use the CP's for SR/Rip.

    8) Anyone know of a good (updated) feral pvp guide?

    Nope :l

  11. #11
    Hey Roake, thanks for the answers! So if you open on someone with all CDs popped what does your opening look like? Are you just going SR->pop cds->ravage x3->FB or you're putting up rip first?

  12. #12
    SR -> CD's -> Ravage 'till you have 5 CP's and then FB. Rinse and repeat. If your cooldowns are ending and the target won't drop dead, use Rip(/SR). The way this game currently is, there won't be time for Rip to even tick too many times during your and your partner's burst. Preferable would be to have Rip and Rake already ticking on the target before starting the burst. Or you can get 5 CP's, pop cooldowns and use Rip first, then proceed with spamming Ravage and FB, granted that the healer/dps's are well CC'd and/or out of defensive cooldowns. Depends on the situation, but using 5CP FB with cooldowns on yields the most DPS during the few seconds timeframe of the burst.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •