Rapid fire and Bestial Wrath

[keygy]

Hi guys, i have a little problem, i doubt about the best option about to stack or not stack Rapid Fire and Bestial Wrath, anyone know if the best option is stack this cooldows? thanks

[Marut]

it is situational really.
When you use Rapid Fire, your pet will lose 20% attack speed and you will gain 30% haste....if you use bestial wrath here you will gain EXTRA boost to DPS while your pet will be compensated for losing the 20% attack speed. so it depends on the fight and how its goes.

I am not BM, but since BM relies mostly on pets I'd not stack both, unless you go for DPS race with READINESS available to you. you stack both and then you do READINESS to reset the cooldown.

[Arktem]

it is situational really.
When you use Rapid Fire, your pet will lose 20% attack speed and you will gain 30% haste....if you use bestial wrath here you will gain EXTRA boost to DPS while your pet will be compensated for losing the 20% attack speed. so it depends on the fight and how its goes.

I am not BM, but since BM relies mostly on pets I'd not stack both, unless you go for DPS race with READINESS available to you. you stack both and then you do READINESS to reset the cooldown.

You're confusing Rapid Fire with Focus Fire.

Marut is right, it is situational. The problem lies in focus. You, generally, never want to focus cap. Popping Rapid Fire and Bestial Wrath together almost guarantees that you will. In your initial opener there is no point in not stacking the two as both will be reset by Readiness anyways.

After the initial one you generally don't want to, due to focus capping, but that isn't always the case. If you can stack enough cooldowns together during the fight, and get your focus low enough with many focus costing abilities coming off. KC/MoC/KC for example, to prevent focus capping as much as possible, then there are situations where popping them both together is ideal.

Rapid Fire is a really poor cooldown for BM anyways.

[Desh]

You're confusing Rapid Fire with Focus Fire.

Marut is right, it is situational. The problem lies in focus. You, generally, never want to focus cap. Popping Rapid Fire and Bestial Wrath together almost guarantees that you will. In your initial opener there is no point in not stacking the two as both will be reset by Readiness anyways.

It really depends how much haste you have. I hardly ever focus cap with BW+RF but I have very little haste. I'm reforging out of it + I'm predominately an LFR hero this expansion. It's also fairly hard to focus cap on the first RF because of how much focus AMoC still costs with both those CDs up.

[Arktem]

It really depends how much haste you have. I hardly ever focus cap with BW+RF but I have very little haste. I'm reforging out of it + I'm predominately an LFR hero this expansion. It's also fairly hard to focus cap on the first RF because of how much focus AMoC still costs with both those CDs up.

Gear is a large factor then. I also get rid of as much haste as I can, but even with low haste I easily focus cap at the start of fights. Although, I am also casting CoS to refresh SrS at the start, so that is a large factor also.

[Libertarian]

I'm probably wrong here but you want to use focus fire within ~20s or so following Bestial wrath so it has time to get back to 5 stacks for your next BW. And from what I can tell on sim and FD, it's a small dps loss not using it IF you are at the haste where it would make a difference. Now come next tier or the tier after it should be required to use within the 20s following a BW because we will have much more haste. It's really hard to tell and this is one of those spells that falls under "too mathy" that blizzard got rid of in the past, but seems to linger around with hunters.

[eschatological]

This thread is about Rapid Fire, not Focus Fire.

I can barely remember when I ever use Focus Fire. Sometimes I'll use it inbetween platforms on Vizier because the 5 stack of frenzy is about to fall off, but that's about it. My pet does so much ridiculous damage even on its auto attack that I don't see the benefit of losing the constant 20% attack speed for my pet. Any fight with more pet movement I use it a bit more because I need to weight my DPS more to fired shots to make up for the lose pet DPS. I never use it during Elegon, and my spark seems to die instantaneously because my pet just wrecks it.

[Libertarian]

This thread is about Rapid Fire, not Focus Fire.

I can barely remember when I ever use Focus Fire. Sometimes I'll use it inbetween platforms on Vizier because the 5 stack of frenzy is about to fall off, but that's about it. My pet does so much ridiculous damage even on its auto attack that I don't see the benefit of losing the constant 20% attack speed for my pet. Any fight with more pet movement I use it a bit more because I need to weight my DPS more to fired shots to make up for the lose pet DPS. I never use it during Elegon, and my spark seems to die instantaneously because my pet just wrecks it.

Well in that case there are times when you need to stack it with BW and times you don't. Example, I would always stack it with spirit king transitions.

[eschatological]

Stack what with BW? Focus Fire? Or Frenzy? I'm saying I keep the 5 stack of Frenzy almost always, and almost never consume it to use Focus Fire.

[Nemesis003]

Stack what with BW? Focus Fire? Or Frenzy? I'm saying I keep the 5 stack of Frenzy almost always, and almost never consume it to use Focus Fire.

that is a DPS loss

[Libertarian]

Stack what with BW? Focus Fire? Or Frenzy? I'm saying I keep the 5 stack of Frenzy almost always, and almost never consume it to use Focus Fire.

Basically there's a few scenarios and I need to double check it again and I could be extremely wrong:

Low hunter haste - hunter does not gain enough benefit to remove the attack speed from pet
Medium hunter haste - enough to use but only after using bestial wrath. Pet has to rebuild stacks before next BW.
High hunter haste - use at 5 stacks no matter what

I'm sure some theory crafters could come up with the exact numbers. Part of the issue is that Frenzy = attack speed and Focus fire = ranged attack haste. There should be an equilibrium where the two cross. This was an issue in beta, and I remember seeing a detailed post on the beta forum, but that's long gone now.

There's also the issue of Rabid now that it is attack speed, and I can't remember if using it with BW or on cd is better. But you never want rabid to go off when your pet has no stacks of frenzy.

[eschatological]

that is a DPS loss

Yes, but if you don't have a 5 stack of frenzy going into BW, that's a bigger DPS loss. It's one of those things where "in theory" consuming Frenzy at 5 stacks for Focus Fire is higher DPS, but in reality, the difference is so small, and the right opportunity to do it (right after BW) and the bad RNG involved (possibly not fully stacked by the time the next BW comes up) makes it functionally better to not consume it unless the Frenzy stack is about to fall off.

---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 07:52 PM ----------

Also, as BM, I've got something like 1500 haste at 496 ilvl, so yeah, I don't consume it.

[Deleted]

I stack them, and never cap focus anyway. RF also increases your pet's focus regen so it's actually a buff during BW.

For the same reason I pop Stampede during RF.

[eschatological]

RF increases ranged haste, which has no effect on pet focus regen. That would be melee haste.

[Rullis]

RF increases ranged haste, which has no effect on pet focus regen. That would be melee haste.

Correct. And the only thing that stacks with that is the trinket that gives 3500 haste on use, at the moment. (Which I have, still.. because of no drops.)

[Deleted]

RF increases ranged haste, which has no effect on pet focus regen. That would be melee haste.

Wrong. It does increase pet's focus regen, as does Focus Fire; they don't increase pet's attack speed though.

[Goretex]

Gear is a large factor then. I also get rid of as much haste as I can, but even with low haste I easily focus cap at the start of fights. Although, I am also casting CoS to refresh SrS at the start, so that is a large factor also.

If I find myself almost about to focus cap, alot of times I skip cobra shot and reapply serpent sting and Arc shot spam. I've tried this out and I've seen no dps loss. I do use cobra shot though if my focus regen abilities are on cd. I kinda like this strategy because alot of times I don't have to worry about cobra shot cast and do all instant shots.

[Spiralphoenix]

Wrong. It does increase pet's focus regen, as does Focus Fire; they don't increase pet's attack speed though.

In case anyone needs a solid source of what spiattalo says being the truth:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6412493030

[Deleted]

In case anyone needs a solid source of what spiattalo says being the truth:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/6412493030

Thanks. And for those who don't know who that random hunter who answered is, well, you should feel ashamed of your hunter toon.

[Nuadu]

Thanks. And for those who don't know who that random hunter who answered is, well, you should feel ashamed of your hunter toon.

I don't, and I don't feel the least bit ashamed. Sorry.