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  1. #21
    Honeslty, I have a hard to believing the listing for the trinkets simply based off the fact that I've simmed myself multiple times using EoT/DMF (upgraded) trinket, EoT/Cosmos (normal since Elegon hates me), Cosmos/DMF (upgraded) and every time EoT/DMF (upgraded) comes out on top by nearly 800 DPS. So where that list is saying normal Cosmos + EoT > EoT + DMF (upgraded) it's the opposite for me by a fair margin.

    Shrug, probably just the rest of my gear making it wonky but I feel like that list is off.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-02 at 07:01 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Expandus View Post
    That isn't correct, the hole reason haste is so good is because it makes your mg channels faster, meaning you get more dot ticks as well. Haste is now a good stat that becomes even better close to a threshold as oppose to previously where it has been a "ok" stat that became good close to thresholds.
    MG works the same way with haste as any other DoT does. It only ticks "x" times during the channel, more haste = more ticks during the channel. If you sit between a haste two haste thresholds it's doing nothing for your MG cast, only making it slightly faster for no benefit of DPS (other than the slightest cast difference). Whereas if you are able to attain more mastery/crit and stay at the threshold you desire it's going to be more DPS.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    MG works the same way with haste as any other DoT does. It only ticks "x" times during the channel, more haste = more ticks during the channel. If you sit between a haste two haste thresholds it's doing nothing for your MG cast, only making it slightly faster for no benefit of DPS (other than the slightest cast difference). Whereas if you are able to attain more mastery/crit and stay at the threshold you desire it's going to be more DPS.
    There is no such thing as a haste threshold for MG. It doesn't gain more ticks from haste. It makes your channel faster, which translates to shorter time between ticks for every point of haste. Since there's no cast time and the channel 'covers' the GCD, it's not like a DoT at all.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    I tried it without the ilevel/quality, makes no difference. I think the issue it that if you include id= it will grab stats from somewhere, but I am looking for proc only. Check to see that your proc has been upgraded, not just the stats.
    Not sure where to look for specific proc upgrades. Here's the results of the two sims:

    Without upgrades: https://drive.google.com/uc?export=&...29mOG82czJLVFE
    With upgrades: https://drive.google.com/uc?export=&...XJDWUFodGhvOTg

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    There is no such thing as a haste threshold for MG. It doesn't gain more ticks from haste. It makes your channel faster, which translates to shorter time between ticks for every point of haste. Since there's no cast time and the channel 'covers' the GCD, it's not like a DoT at all.
    uhhh....you sure you know what you're talking about?



    Not trying to be pompous about it, but there are clearcut thresholds for MG as well. there are "ticks" just like drain soul.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    uhhh....you sure you know what you're talking about?



    Not trying to be pompous about it, but there are clearcut thresholds for MG as well. there are "ticks" just like drain soul.
    Yeah. That chart is wrong.

    Edit: but even if it did have haste breakpoints, it wouldn't change anything. Haste breakpoints matter for DoTs because it's 'how many ticks you get for 1 GCD'. That's not the calculation you do for channels because the GCD is meaningless unless you miss.
    Last edited by Rustjive; 2012-12-02 at 08:01 PM.
    http://darkcontent.wordpress.com/ - blog (updated Oct. 8, 2013). Latest post: T16H Affliction Trinket Rankings in Combination, done in SimC 540-4.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    uhhh....you sure you know what you're talking about?



    Not trying to be pompous about it, but there are clearcut thresholds for MG as well. there are "ticks" just like drain soul.
    that chart was already proven to be wrong about the MG ticks

  7. #27
    I had to really spam Malefic Grasp when I was soloing Alys in Affli like 3 weeks ago with enough ring buffs, I don't think it gains ticks.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Nivrax View Post
    I had to really spam Malefic Grasp when I was soloing Alys in Affli like 3 weeks ago with enough ring buffs, I don't think it gains ticks.
    correct. the ticks stay the same, the channel time is just faster, thus more MG casts

  9. #29
    It's pretty easy to see all of this when you use dark soul... you get a very quick MG, same number of ticks but shorter intervals.

  10. #30
    my b, did they change that since release? cuz there was more mg ticks before mop launch when i was playing with aff then, didn't really pay attention to it since

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post

    MG works the same way with haste as any other DoT does. It only ticks "x" times during the channel, more haste = more ticks during the channel. If you sit between a haste two haste thresholds it's doing nothing for your MG cast, only making it slightly faster for no benefit of DPS (other than the slightest cast difference). Whereas if you are able to attain more mastery/crit and stay at the threshold you desire it's going to be more DPS.
    This is soooooo incorrect.
    Malefic grasp has a 4 second base cast time (with 0 haste). It applies 4 ticks during the channel, and each of these ticks ALSO applies the MG extra dot tick to your dots.
    In a 400 second fight, that means you get to cast MG 100 times, and get 400 MG ticks AND 400 of the bonus DoT ticks. (I know that you also need to cast your dots, but this is just to make the maths simpler - just simply think of it as a fight that allows you 400 seconds to cast MG)
    If you had sufficient haste to reduce the cast of MG to 3.5 seconds, that would mean in the same 400 second fight duration you would be able to apply M$ 114 times, thus giving 456 MG ticks AND 456 bonus dot ticks.
    Haste gives significant benefits to MG and there are NO plateaus for it.

  12. #32
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    my b, did they change that since release? cuz there was more mg ticks before mop launch when i was playing with aff then, didn't really pay attention to it since
    Malific grasp is similiar to mind flay, and mind flay would never got an increasing amount of ticks during haste buffs (when I played shadow priest in Cata, or Tbc or Wotlk for that matter), only faster channeling time.
    This dot feature with an increasing amount of ticks when reaching a haste plateu was added in 4.0 however, and when doing Alysrazor spells such as divine hymn would get an increasing amount of ticks (a shit ton that is), whereas mind flay would end up being GCD capped.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    Malific grasp is similiar to mind flay, and mind flay would never got an increasing amount of ticks during haste buffs (when I played shadow priest in Cata, or Tbc or Wotlk for that matter), only faster channeling time.
    This dot feature with an increasing amount of ticks when reaching a haste plateu was added in 4.0 however, and when doing Alysrazor spells such as divine hymn would get an increasing amount of ticks (a shit ton that is), whereas mind flay would end up being GCD capped.
    read:

    my b, did they change that since release? cuz there was more mg ticks before mop launch when i was playing with aff then, didn't really pay attention to it since
    Quote Originally Posted by Boradan View Post
    This is soooooo incorrect.
    Malefic grasp has a 4 second base cast time (with 0 haste). It applies 4 ticks during the channel, and each of these ticks ALSO applies the MG extra dot tick to your dots.
    In a 400 second fight, that means you get to cast MG 100 times, and get 400 MG ticks AND 400 of the bonus DoT ticks. (I know that you also need to cast your dots, but this is just to make the maths simpler - just simply think of it as a fight that allows you 400 seconds to cast MG)
    If you had sufficient haste to reduce the cast of MG to 3.5 seconds, that would mean in the same 400 second fight duration you would be able to apply M$ 114 times, thus giving 456 MG ticks AND 456 bonus dot ticks.
    Haste gives significant benefits to MG and there are NO plateaus for it.
    read:

    my b, did they change that since release? cuz there was more mg ticks before mop launch when i was playing with aff then, didn't really pay attention to it since

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Rustjive View Post
    I tried it without the ilevel/quality, makes no difference. I think the issue it that if you include id= it will grab stats from somewhere, but I am looking for proc only. Check to see that your proc has been upgraded, not just the stats.
    There's your problem. The sim will only do upgrades if it knows the id of the item.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  15. #35
    The Lightbringer
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    read:





    read:
    I dont get your point about why you quoted someone else, since that information is nothing new, but what you wrote here:
    my b, did they change that since release? cuz there was more mg ticks before mop launch when i was playing with aff then, didn't really pay attention to it since
    makes it seem like you experienced something else on beta or before expansion release (post MoP patch), which couldn't be correct seeing as MG is simply a copy of Mind flay. No need to act stupid because of your misunderstanding of class mechanics and poorly written English (refering to the second post I quoted).

  16. #36
    The new version of Simcraft isn't even taking in the correct values of haste and crit (even though crit is irrelevant) for me and I am so close to a haste point that my sim is actually showing me under! LOL so atm I can't take this version of SimC seriosuly.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Greywardenn View Post
    The new version of Simcraft isn't even taking in the correct values of haste and crit (even though crit is irrelevant) for me and I am so close to a haste point that my sim is actually showing me under! LOL so atm I can't take this version of SimC seriosuly.
    Please elaborate / give an example.
    http://wowupgrade.com/ - instant gear comparison for all classes / specs

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Funkthepunk View Post
    I dont get your point about why you quoted someone else, since that information is nothing new, but what you wrote here: makes it seem like you experienced something else on beta or before expansion release (post MoP patch), which couldn't be correct seeing as MG is simply a copy of Mind flay. No need to act stupid because of your misunderstanding of class mechanics and poorly written English (refering to the second post I quoted).
    If they read the would have realized that I already said it was my bad. If you're too dense to comprehend basic English. I wasn't acting stupid and yes, in beta and pre-MoP launch MG was affected by haste.

    If they read further then I wouldn't have had to be a dick about it, but they didn't.

  19. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by Woz View Post
    MG works the same way with haste as any other DoT does.
    All DoTs don't work out the same in terms of haste caps. There's a big difference between haste caps for people who "fire and forget" HoTs/DoTs (like healers tend to do) and people who keep their DoTs rolling (like afflocks). In the healer case, the only thing you care about is how much damage/healing you get with each cast, because there are hard limits (like cooldowns) to how often you can recast the spell. This means that haste does nothing unless you can get an extra tick. However, when you constantly refresh your DoTs as your top priority, there's a point to having the DoT tick faster even if it won't get an extra tick, because it makes the DoT fall off faster and lets you recast it sooner. Adding an extra tick is good, because it frees up some extra time for MG spam, but haste improves your DoT DPS even if you can't get any extra ticks

    In theory, the benefit from having your DoTs tick faster and refreshing them more often could be offset by losing out on Malefic Grasp ticks, but since MG also scales with haste (see below), that ends up not being an issue. You basically end up doing the exact same rotation/priority as without haste, only you do all of it faster (including more Haunt, as faster Corruption ticks means more Nightfall procs). Which obviously means more DPS.

    As for Malefic Grasp, it has a fixed number of ticks, with haste reducing the time between ticks. So more haste means you can squeeze in more Malefic Grasp ticks during a fight, which is obviously a DPS increase. There are no soft caps for MG, though I suppose it technically has a hardcap where you can finish the entire channel in less than a GCD... but you'd need 300% haste to reach that.

    All of this can be easily tested and confirmed by simply removing any item you have with haste on it and looking at spell tooltips. No need to speculate: just log in and check for yourself. Try it on a dummy if you don't trust the tooltips.
    Diplomacy is just war by other means.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Gobuchul View Post
    Please elaborate / give an example.
    Battlenet armory isn't showing item upgrades now, so you have to add them manually after importing, that is probably why the stats are off.

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