Did you even read his post?
Did you even read MY previous post? He replied to a post regarding the use of Vanish as a dps-cooldown, therefore, the subject at hand is "Vanish as a cooldown" - that being said, he argued that Vanish is still being used as an offensive ability; thus, my reply to him was either relevant and on topic OR his reply was irrelevant and off-topic..
Now, sit back and relax or continue arguing your semantic bullshit.
1 free mutilate every 2 minutes equal = 55 energy every 2 minutes
1 free ambush every 2 minutes = 60 energy every 2 minutes
Yep, definitely not as gamechanging as the old overkill . . . . .
That being said, overkill was a clunky link that made you have to balance vanish as an offensive vs defensive cooldown in PvP. The problem for rogues at it's heart though has to do with how we generate damage and the net effect of that on play experience. So much of a rogue's output is tied to passive damage that pressing any particular button feels lackluster.
Cold blood at least allowed for timed burst in PvP. It was next to useless in PvE, but it gave you control over burst in PvP and so as a cooldown it was nice (too long, but nice).
Rogue's initial design as a cooldown based class that sacrifices damage for control is also flawed with the changes the game has made. With every class gaining stuns (usually at no cost) our stuns decreased in value thus making the damage sacrifice tied to them that much more painful. The homogenization of snares has removed an area of rogue superiority and when combined with rogue's inherently limited mobility and reliance on passive damage PvP has become far more painful. Heavy passive damage inherently reduces burst, which is key to target switching in PvE and to PvP in general.
In vanilla rogues were glass cannons with sick burst and unmatched control - we were OP.
In TBC rogues lost some burst but control remained and we were still very squishy and cooldown reliant - this was probably the closest we came to balanced minus a few things (hemo maces, glaive and 4pc T6 in arenas come to mind)
WotLK the continuous addition of cooldowns was starting to really be felt - with them we were stupidly powerful, without them we were a joke. Combined with the burst nature of PvP at the time and this was a strange combination of OP and unfun at the same time.
Cataclysm - relatively balanced until vial/legendaries. We gained survival at the cost of burst (early on) but were really feeling cooldown problems as we had a lot of medium length cooldowns while other classes had shorter cooldowns.
The new talent tree forms haven't addressed the problems -
We still are too cooldown reliant with cooldowns that are too long for their strength thus making prep seem mandatory (removing prep and rebalancing cooldown length around this would be far better for the class than making prep baseline).
We still have mobility issues (no base gap closer combined with losing our improved snare hurts)
We still have poor burst windows and output (too much uptime required for real damage as so much is tied to white swings)
I forget which designer said that rogue design was about building up and then unleashing the power, but that's a great quote, because what exactly is it that rogue's build up to? Our finishers are unimpressive at best. Many classes base strikes and spells have equal or better damage tied to them, yet our finishers represent a significant investment of time to get to. This is the problem with rogues - our design philosophy doesn't match our game play. If we're all about cooldowns then those cooldowns should feel significant. If we're all about build up, then we should build up to something. Rogues have been lost to the homogenization of classes because we started off with a very polished model, but that model hasn't evolved with the rest of the game.
Vanish with subtlety also grants Find weakness, much stronger than overkill
Overkill was just perfect for timing burst in PVP. It was fun, and now it's gone and Assassination is constantly energy starved. On my ret paladin and warrior I can always use an ability.
You want to talk about bad game design? Instead you have abilities like Paralytic poison that you have to wait to stack up. Lol. The only ability that this reminds me of is Seal of Command from vanilla/TBC. Because waiting for something to happen is fun.
Rogues are terrible. I guess I'll wait and see what it's like in 6 months or a year.
For Assassination, Mutilate is a clear winner, although Ambush isn't far off damage wise.
For Combat, Ambush is a clear winner due to it giving the highest amount of combo points for the highest amount of damage, and Sub is no different in this regard.
Garrote deals less damage than Ambush/Mutilate and awards less combo points. It also deals less damage than Rupture and ticks slower. At best, it can used to activate Sanguinary Vein at the start of a fight, for Sub, but it sure as hell shouldn't be used during a fight with Vanish.
Rogue is the only one of my characters where I'm doing a lot of things for the least reward.
I would also say that the skill req of rogues has decreased, regardless of how bad the class is, the mechanics are *easier*.
Last edited by Speaknoevil; 2012-12-06 at 04:28 AM.
you are the new shaman in which i mean blizzard hates you..... my condolences
love the comics OP. Personally i still play out of nostalgia. Rogue was my first toon on wow and hes been my main all the way through. Sure i miss the days where i destroyed the meters with little to no effort. I especially miss TBC with mace spec combat stunlocking healers in bg's and arenas. Who knows one day we may get some lovin again from blizz
Have you ever stepped on a lego piece while barefoot?
Can you recall that exquisitely piercing and utterly unforgettable pedal agony? Now imagine what would happen if you were to step on between 10 and 25 angry, well armed lego pieces which are all acting in brutal concert, and tell me how that would go for you.
Plus they have magic and sharp objects.
I replied because you put several words in his mouth. What he said was not incorrect. You CAN use Vanish as a cooldown to gain a small amount of DPS. Of course the gain is negligible, but he never said it was a massive DPS increase to do so - you responded to him as if he had.