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  1. #21
    Hi Voltaa.

    But yes, I think Frost will be FoTM. Arcane is the best patchwork but any movement is a massive DPS loss.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by chaostiger View Post
    Hi Voltaa.

    But yes, I think Frost will be FoTM. Arcane is the best patchwork but any movement is a massive DPS loss.
    Oh hai cutie, let's do sushi this saturday.

    On topic: is there anyway we can scale simcraft to project what dps will look like as fire next tier? I know that exact stats would be impossible but based on ilvl scaling I'm thinking we could have a good guess of what the stats will be on the gear. I'd be really interested to see how the scaling works out based on the recent nerfs

  3. #23
    Let me first say that I don't play mage, I play Hunter and I am enjoying the buffs my class got. My friend (and guildie) is a mage and like most mages I have seen, he immediately went frost. Purely out of the doomsday mind set that many other mages seem to have about fire. It did not go well for him. He went from beating me significantly to losing to me by quite a bit when the 100% Serpent Sting/50% combust changes went in, but again, he was frost. He seems to still do quite a lot better than the other 2 specs as fire and yes he did regem/reforge for the other 2 specs.

    My point is if you look at parses and do the math I still think fire is strong. You take 50% off combustion. (4th most damaging move from what I've seen) I get that part of the nerf is quite steep. What I don't understand is how people say the critical mass part of the nerf is the true dps loss. If you were at 30% crit (which most mages around 490 ilvl are) you went from 45% crit on fireballs and pyroblasts to 37.5%. This means that your chances of getting 2 fireball crits, and therefore a pyroblasts, went from around 20% to 14%. 6% less pyroblasts!? To me, that doesn't seem huge at all.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthandir View Post
    Let me first say that I don't play mage, I play Hunter and I am enjoying the buffs my class got. My friend (and guildie) is a mage and like most mages I have seen, he immediately went frost. Purely out of the doomsday mind set that many other mages seem to have about fire. It did not go well for him. He went from beating me significantly to losing to me by quite a bit when the 100% Serpent Sting/50% combust changes went in, but again, he was frost. He seems to still do quite a lot better than the other 2 specs as fire and yes he did regem/reforge for the other 2 specs.

    My point is if you look at parses and do the math I still think fire is strong. You take 50% off combustion. (4th most damaging move from what I've seen) I get that part of the nerf is quite steep. What I don't understand is how people say the critical mass part of the nerf is the true dps loss. If you were at 30% crit (which most mages around 490 ilvl are) you went from 45% crit on fireballs and pyroblasts to 37.5%. This means that your chances of getting 2 fireball crits, and therefore a pyroblasts, went from around 20% to 14%. 6% less pyroblasts!? To me, that doesn't seem huge at all.
    Well honestly, a lot of it has to do with personal skill with the spec. If he's been fire forever and just switched to frost because he thought it would do more damage than fire (and maybe it does), he wont necessarily do more damage as frost because he might not know how to play it as well as he plays fire. Sure, fire is still strong, but I honestly think it'll bring all 3 mage specs in line with each other so for the most part, it'll come down to familiarity with the spec. For now at least. Just wait a week or two to see what spec is really the top, then it might take a week or so to get familiar with the spec if you haven't played much of it yet, then expectations will hopefully be met.

    PS: You think that it's not a heavy nerf but 6% less pyros (which are constantly 30%+ of my damage) + 8% less crit overall + ~10% overall damage nerf coming from combustion = a healthy nerf all totaled up. I think it's a fair nerf though, disregarding the fun factor involved with getting a lot of pyros that a lot of people are arguing about. It brings fire back in line with most of the other top dps specs, and most of all, puts all 3 mage specs relatively close together again.
    Last edited by Jaylol; 2012-12-02 at 11:41 PM.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthandir View Post
    Let me first say that I don't play mage, I play Hunter and I am enjoying the buffs my class got. My friend (and guildie) is a mage and like most mages I have seen, he immediately went frost. Purely out of the doomsday mind set that many other mages seem to have about fire. It did not go well for him. He went from beating me significantly to losing to me by quite a bit when the 100% Serpent Sting/50% combust changes went in, but again, he was frost. He seems to still do quite a lot better than the other 2 specs as fire and yes he did regem/reforge for the other 2 specs.

    My point is if you look at parses and do the math I still think fire is strong. You take 50% off combustion. (4th most damaging move from what I've seen) I get that part of the nerf is quite steep. What I don't understand is how people say the critical mass part of the nerf is the true dps loss. If you were at 30% crit (which most mages around 490 ilvl are) you went from 45% crit on fireballs and pyroblasts to 37.5%. This means that your chances of getting 2 fireball crits, and therefore a pyroblasts, went from around 20% to 14%. 6% less pyroblasts!? To me, that doesn't seem huge at all.
    On Wednesday I was head and shoulders above our Hunter as Fire, today I was usually a little way ahead of him as Arcane although he could catch up with luck.
    I have a feeling this is likely going to be more to do with familiarity with the spec than damage potential, I've played all three for the whole tier so it wasn't much of a difference for me but it will be a bit of a cognitive shift for someone who has been Fire since MoP launched.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Gilthandir View Post
    Let me first say that I don't play mage, I play Hunter and I am enjoying the buffs my class got. My friend (and guildie) is a mage and like most mages I have seen, he immediately went frost. Purely out of the doomsday mind set that many other mages seem to have about fire. It did not go well for him. He went from beating me significantly to losing to me by quite a bit when the 100% Serpent Sting/50% combust changes went in, but again, he was frost. He seems to still do quite a lot better than the other 2 specs as fire and yes he did regem/reforge for the other 2 specs.

    My point is if you look at parses and do the math I still think fire is strong. You take 50% off combustion. (4th most damaging move from what I've seen) I get that part of the nerf is quite steep. What I don't understand is how people say the critical mass part of the nerf is the true dps loss. If you were at 30% crit (which most mages around 490 ilvl are) you went from 45% crit on fireballs and pyroblasts to 37.5%. This means that your chances of getting 2 fireball crits, and therefore a pyroblasts, went from around 20% to 14%. 6% less pyroblasts!? To me, that doesn't seem huge at all.
    It really is bigger than you think. The critical mass nerf reduces the amount of pyroblasts you get, as you said. Reduced pyroblasts means that you're less likely to be able to put 3-4 pyroblasts in to a boss before every combustion, which reduces the damage of combustion further.

    Typically combustion was 25% of my total damage on any given fight, a 50% nerf reduces my total damage by 12.5%. On top of that 12.5%, my combustions have less pyroblasts contributing to them, and I've lost 7.5% crit with crit being my most valuable stat.

    The nerf was brutal, and has destroyed not only the damage of the spec, but the flow of it. Doing nothing but hard casting fireball while keeping living bomb up and watching a pyroblast buff come close to timing out because you can't get a heating up proc isn't fun. It's shit.

    The real issue isn't that fire was nerfed, I understand that it was overpowered. The issue is that fire was nerfed to the point that if you're not playing frost or arcane , then you're not performing where you should be. On literally zero notice mages are told to switch to specs that perform best with the opposite stats that their gear has. My beef with that is that I've passed on many pieces of excellent arcane/frost gear simply because they were shit for fire, and good for our warlock. Now I am left in a position that arcane is near unplayable for me because only 3 pieces of my gear have mastery on them, and almost all of them have crit. My gear isn't even great for frost.
    Last edited by Shmeh; 2012-12-02 at 11:43 PM.

  7. #27
    Bloodsail Admiral Dutchmagoz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Voyager View Post
    Only tanks should raid lead, tanking is by far the easiest role in a raid/dungeon. Frost is easier to play right than Mists Arcane, only Cataclysm Arcane was way easier.
    Yea, but not every guild has that option. You don't just change a raidleader because it's the better role to raidlead.

    OT:

    Reduced pyroblasts, lower damage by ignite due to less crits, lower combustions due to lower ignites, another 50% lower combustions due to nerf, less bomb crits. Arcane will probably be new best spec. Frost doesn't compare atm.
    Last edited by Dutchmagoz; 2012-12-02 at 11:51 PM.
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  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Shmeh View Post
    It really is bigger than you think. The critical mass nerf reduces the amount of pyroblasts you get, as you said. Reduced pyroblasts means that you're less likely to be able to put 3-4 pyroblasts in to a boss before every combustion, which reduces the damage of combustion further.

    Typically combustion was 25% of my total damage on any given fight, a 50% nerf reduces my total damage by 12.5%. On top of that 12.5%, my combustions have less pyroblasts contributing to them, and I've lost 7.5% crit with crit being my most valuable stat.

    The nerf was brutal, and has destroyed not only the damage of the spec, but the flow of it. Doing nothing but hard casting fireball while keeping living bomb up and watching a pyroblast buff come close to timing out because you can't get a heating up proc isn't fun. It's shit.

    The real issue isn't that fire was nerfed, I understand that it was overpowered. The issue is that fire was nerfed to the point that if you're not playing frost or arcane , then you're not performing where you should be. On literally zero notice mages are told to switch to specs that perform best with the opposite stats that their gear has. My beef with that is that I've passed on many pieces of excellent arcane/frost gear simply because they were shit for fire, and good for our warlock. Now I am left in a position that arcane is near unplayable for me because only 3 pieces of my gear have mastery on them, and almost all of them have crit. My gear isn't even great for frost.
    I still don't understand why you have the mentality that fire is going to be the Marksmanship spec for mages. The nerf was huge, yes. But it isn't going to make fire be anywhere close to as sub-optimal as you're making it out to be. Chances are if you really are geared for fire and your gear would be absolute trash for frost/arcane as you say it is, fire will still be more than viable for you. I guess at the end of the day though, we won't truly know until raid resets. You could be right, I could be right. I just feel like you're overreacting quite a bit. Even if fire does end up below the other two specs, it will be far less severe than you're making it out to be.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    I still don't understand why you have the mentality that fire is going to be the Marksmanship spec for mages. The nerf was huge, yes. But it isn't going to make fire be anywhere close to as sub-optimal as you're making it out to be. Chances are if you really are geared for fire and your gear would be absolute trash for frost/arcane as you say it is, fire will still be more than viable for you. I guess at the end of the day though, we won't truly know until raid resets. You could be right, I could be right. I just feel like you're overreacting quite a bit. Even if fire does end up below the other two specs, it will be far less severe than you're making it out to be.
    I did quite a lot of personal testing. Fire is lower than arcane and frost, even with sub-optimal gear for frost/arcane. Having appropriate gear for those specs will make the difference even larger. Math doesn't lie.

  10. #30
    Be warned new comers to frost in raiding, many of the boss fight platforms are still bugged for pet and AoE targeting.

  11. #31
    Mechagnome jtmzac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    I am in a bit of a pickle. I am Frost right now, but being a raid leader too, it may not be the best idea to have a "busy" spec while watching the raid and calling stuff out. So as Arcane I might actually pull slightly more. Probs will have to do some testing.
    Its a bit of a late response considering how much this thread has progressed but I would say frost is the easiest of the specs making it most viable for raid leading.

    Arcane in 4.3 worked well because your dps was based on interaction with boss mechanics so you were watching them all the time which helps with raid leading. The mop arcane is very different and I would say the worst spec if you want to be a raid leader.

    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Be warned new comers to frost in raiding, many of the boss fight platforms are still bugged for pet and AoE targeting.
    Which ones? I've never had an issue with missing freezes or aoe. I only have problems with blinking on the elegon platform which I'm starting to doubt blizz will ever fix...
    Last edited by jtmzac; 2012-12-03 at 12:43 AM.
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  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by jtmzac View Post
    Which ones? I've never had an issue with missing freezes or aoe. I only have problems with blinking on the elegon platform which I'm starting to doubt blizz will ever fix...
    I've been arcane all through, this is just from the other mage in our guild. But we are only 4/6 in MV and tried #1 in HoF so it would be some of those.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    I've been arcane all through, this is just from the other mage in our guild. But we are only 4/6 in MV and tried #1 in HoF so it would be some of those.
    The only problem I've had was Elegon, and that was fixed sooo....dunno what he's talking about.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    I've been arcane all through, this is just from the other mage in our guild. But we are only 4/6 in MV and tried #1 in HoF so it would be some of those.
    I've played Frost on most bosses and had no trouble, Rune of Power is less reliable and the only place that messes up is on Elegon.
    I would say to be careful using Frozen Orb during the spark phases on Elegon though, the won't path across the hole unless you are already standing in the vortex so don't cast it at the edge.

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    Well honestly, a lot of it has to do with personal skill with the spec. If he's been fire forever and just switched to frost because he thought it would do more damage than fire (and maybe it does), he wont necessarily do more damage as frost because he might not know how to play it as well as he plays fire. Sure, fire is still strong, but I honestly think it'll bring all 3 mage specs in line with each other so for the most part, it'll come down to familiarity with the spec. For now at least. Just wait a week or two to see what spec is really the top, then it might take a week or so to get familiar with the spec if you haven't played much of it yet, then expectations will hopefully be met.

    PS: You think that it's not a heavy nerf but 6% less pyros (which are constantly 30%+ of my damage) + 8% less crit overall + ~10% overall damage nerf coming from combustion = a healthy nerf all totaled up. I think it's a fair nerf though, disregarding the fun factor involved with getting a lot of pyros that a lot of people are arguing about. It brings fire back in line with most of the other top dps specs, and most of all, puts all 3 mage specs relatively close together again.
    EDIT: I tried to insert the Feng the Accursed 10H fire mage link here but I can't yet. You can find it for your self over at WOL.

    This is currently the best parsed Feng the Accursed 10H fire mage run. He totaled 41 pyroblasts 19 hits, 22 crits. 6% of 41 is around 2.5, so I'll round up and say he would lose 3 pyroblasts. For arguements sake I will also say all 3 of those lost pyroblasts would have been crits totaling for a loss of 975k damage. Next you can say that out of the 38 remaining pyroblasts 7.5% less of them would have been hits not crits. This makes about 3 more of his pyroblasts hits not crits totaling for about a 490k loss. He casted 86 fireballs, 7.5% less of these would have been hits not crits. This means around 7 of his fireballs would have been hits not crits. Putting that at around a 630k loss. Finally of course cut his combustion in half and you have a 4,800k loss. So let's not pretend that the critical mass part is anywhere near the bigger of the 2 nerfs.

    4,800k loss of combustion, 975k loss of total pyroblasts lost, 630k gone from Fireballs hitting not critting, and 490k gone from pyroblasts hitting not critting.
    This totals for a combined around 6895k loss in damage done or around 7 million. This would take him done from 46 million damage done to 39 million.

    This would take his dps from 144k damage per second down to 121k around a 15% loss. However even at 121k that's still 10k ahead of the best frost parse on record and 15 better than arcane (yes the best arcane parse on record is after the arcane buffs.)

    Disclaimer: I know my math is rounded and not perfect. But it should still be around what I have posted.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    The only problem I've had was Elegon, and that was fixed sooo....dunno what he's talking about.
    There are still lots of problems if you're stand on the edge of the platform so you can jump to clear stacks -- your Frozen Orb has a good chance of catching on the edge and going nowhere; your elemental will want to stand on top of you, making it hard to see the edge; add to that the typical ROP issues and it's just a pain and takes some getting used to.

  17. #37
    Im thinking its going to be arcane. I have both a frost and arcane set now both of which is 475+ and arcane is imo pulling better numbers. I think Im gonna stay arcane until they finally give frost mages water jet lol
    "A democracy cannot exist as a permanent form of government. It can only exist until the majority discovers it can vote itself largess out of the public treasury. After that, the majority always votes for the candidate promising the most benefits with the result the democracy collapses because of the loose fiscal policy ensuing, always to be followed by a dictatorship, then a monarchy." -Alexander Tytler

  18. #38
    Quitting the game if I am forced to go Arcane, I'm so depressed now QQ

  19. #39
    This is just not fun I dont even have the right gear for arcane.

  20. #40
    Dreadlord Cycobi's Avatar
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    Was raiding Arcane last night having only just picked up the spec earlier in the day (not a fan of Frost), despite being one of the lowest geared members in my raid (and with sub-par optimization with secondary stats) was able to compete fine with the top DPS on Garajal HC. For those saying 'movement completely kills Arcane'; it does to an extent, but if you run IW instead of RoP you actually don't lose a whole lot; and running IW you can reforge a little out of Mastery into Haste as you're at near-100% mana most of the time anyway, and the only time you burn is when you use IW active to get the mana back for when you get 30% damage buff.

    Personally I hated how simple Fire was. I know there's more to it than most think but once you have Ignite building down and know when to use Combustion (based on Ignite + timing for encounter) and could maximise your dps on the move there wasn't really much more to it. Arcane (at least for now, for me) still requires some thought and feels a hell of a lot more fun than it did in Cataclysm. Frost is just too busy for my liking. It's not really complex, per se (at least, in my opinion anyway), it's just very busy and if you miss something because of how busy it is it can lead to quite a big loss in DPS.

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