Page 1 of 2
1
2
LastLast
  1. #1

    Combat and Rupture?

    Okay, I've scouted around for an answer to this. Elitist Jerks don't really mention the drawbacks of dropping Rupture, and ShadowCraft tells me I'd lose less than 1k dps.

    Is it worth keeping Rupture up? I did a test on the Dummy and I got a significant *decrease* when I DID use Rupture, but I don't know if that's just because I'm out of practice with it. It seemed like so much effort to keep SnD and Rupture up, AND try to Evisc in between.

    Or shall I drop Combat altogether and roll Assassination? :P

  2. #2
    While assassination will give you more damage single target, there are still times you'll be doing a single target rotation as combat.

    Remember combat doesn't need to "keep rupture up". Unlike assassination, whose energy regen is based on it, or sub, whose moves only do fraction damage except against a ruptured (garroted/tempested) target, all it brings to combat is damage.

    Basically, if you are going to press eviscerate, and your target doesn't have a rupture on it, put one up. Don't do 1 point ruptures or any jive like that, just fill in eviscerate with rupture if the rupture isn't already present and will go full duration or very nearly. It's never more important than slice.

  3. #3
    I went to the front page of combat thread of elitist jerks and found this
    "Prioritizing rupture over eviscerate results in a minor dps gain. Always use them with 5 CP."
    if your question is "Is it worth keeping Rupture up?" than that answers it.
    I guess you didnt try very hard when you were scouting for answers.

  4. #4
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,641
    Deleted post.
    Last edited by Duncanîdaho; 2012-11-30 at 01:15 AM.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Duncanîdaho View Post
    You should be using rupture as combat only when your going to gain damage from bandit's guile while it's up. What I mean is when you dish out a rupture your going to gain an insight level while it's up or you might as well have just used eviscerate. You should not be using rupture at deep insight since the damage buff will fall off while rupture is still up and you will get less dps then if you had just used eviscerate at deep insight.
    Your data is outdated and statemen is invalid. You can use rupture at very last second of Deep Insight and all ticks of rupture will get +30% bonus, regardless of current insight state.

  6. #6
    Epic! Duncanîdaho's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2010
    Location
    Ontario, Canada
    Posts
    1,641
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Your data is outdated and statemen is invalid. You can use rupture at very last second of Deep Insight and all ticks of rupture will get +30% bonus, regardless of current insight state.
    I was not aware of that change for MoP, thanks.
    The generalist looks outward; he looks for living principles, knowing full well that such principles change, that they develop. It is to the characteristics of change itself that the mentat-generalist must look. There can be no permanent catalogue of such change, no handbook or manual. You must look at it with as few preconceptions as possible, asking yourself, "Now what is this thing doing?" -Children of Dune

  7. #7
    Rupture for Combat is marginal at best (even IF you only apply it at medium insight or above, at low insight it's a loss IIRC), pretty much always been that way. In fact as you noticed you can actually lose DPS due to the clumsiness of trying to maintain the rotation, especially at low gear levels at the start of an expansion. Just drop it is my advice.

    If you want to perform optimally you should have a Combat and Assassination spec and swap between them as the fight demands - ie Assassination for mostly single target fights, Combat where BF cleave would be helpful. An argument could be made for Subtlety as well I suppose? But I haven't really tried Sub since Cata.
    Quote Originally Posted by Tojara View Post
    Look Batman really isn't an accurate source by any means
    Quote Originally Posted by Hooked View Post
    It is a fact, not just something I made up.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Mazius View Post
    Your data is outdated and statemen is invalid. You can use rupture at very last second of Deep Insight and all ticks of rupture will get +30% bonus, regardless of current insight state.
    I will look for the post but i was aware this was proved to be a lie when a few people on EJ posted proof that they updated dynamically

  9. #9
    Rupture always takes a snapshot of your buffs, while it reacts dynamically to debuffs. Since Bandit's Guile now functions as buffs, it isn't anymore part of the conditions required so Rupture ends being a DPS upgrade.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by fallschick View Post
    I went to the front page of combat thread of elitist jerks and found this
    "Prioritizing rupture over eviscerate results in a minor dps gain. Always use them with 5 CP."
    if your question is "Is it worth keeping Rupture up?" than that answers it.
    I guess you didnt try very hard when you were scouting for answers.
    That.. doesn't answer it, actually. I stated that I'd checked for whether there were drawbacks of NOT using it, not whether there were marginal advantages for keeping it up. Any other comment about rupture was marked as out of date (highlighted in red). That quote says "minor" dps gain, where as I was experiencing dps loss when I used it, so I figured I'd come here for some more opinions.

    Thanks everyone else, though good to know I can just leave it for now until I get used to the rotation and can watch my Deep Insight buff ^^. I've pretty much got my two specs, Combat and Assassination.. just need to tweak gear for Assass >.<

  11. #11
    So, here's the thing about Rupture in Combat. Mathematically it's a 1-2% DPS gain, but that math is based on a static pathwerk fight without movement, target swapping and raid roles. With any of those being present (read: the vast majority of raid encounters), effective 5CP weaving - on which the math is based - becomes difficult, thus diminishing that theoretical DPS increase considerably. Add to that the extra complexity in your rotation; for the best players it doesn't matter, but for the remaining 98% of rogues it means increasing risk of missing an SnD refresh for a second or two, miss-manage insight level or something else that is much more detrimental to overall performance.

    Bottom line, if you're one of the best rogues out there you know this and have already tested it through and through; if not then odds are you should be looking at other areas for improvement first.
    Last edited by Lachtobi; 2012-11-30 at 10:14 AM.

  12. #12
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,548
    Then lets look at things then.

    As static fights go.

    MSV
    Stone guard - no
    Feng - Yes
    Spiritbinder - Yes
    Spirit Kings - Yes / no?
    Elegon - Yes / no
    Will of emp Yes / no

    Heart of fear
    Zor'lok Yes
    Blade lord Yes
    Garalon No
    Wind Blade No
    Amber shaper no
    Empress - Yes / no

    Endless Spring

    Council - Yes (You shouldn't be cleaving unless the water add is up)
    Tsulong: Yes
    Lei Shi: No
    Sha of Fear Yes

  13. #13
    T-Man, the list itself isn't that helpful because outside cleave fights you shouldn't play combat in the first place, unless you have AWFUL luck with daggers and great luck with fist weapons. Or if you're messing around, but then why min-max really hard?

    The only time to rupture is anytime you'd use an eviscerate, when you're in combat, only on single target, when rupture is not up, and you would have used an eviscerate instead. There are times this is useful if you're min-maxing, but they are short times. No leg on Garalon comes to mind, but the damage gain is even more miniscule here, because your damage total is inflated from the time you spend cleaving (with a damage bonus to your main target, no less), which further lessens the impact of rupture.

    Granted it's possible you've got 471 daggers and 497+ fist weapons, but between tokens, daggers dropping off the first boss in MV, and how long the LFR has been out, I can't imagine anyone who's playing a rogue seriously being THAT unlucky.

  14. #14
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,548
    Don't get me wrong, I play combat for the simple reason of when we are farming content I dont really enjoy spending 200g just to reforge on a boss thats going to die no matter what my spec is ( in my case im running combat for heart of fear as farming 5/6 in in any spec and being combat for empress) Heck, if reforgeing didnt cost so much I would be respecing even for farm content but that 200g+ bill will end up hurting

    Correct me if im wrong but I'm pretty sure Killars plays combat for almost every thing.. Even on non cleave fights and still gets top rank without rupture so.

    Does anyone have any high logs from combat with rupture?

  15. #15
    T-Man, the list itself isn't that helpful because outside cleave fights you shouldn't play combat in the first place, unless you have AWFUL luck with daggers and great luck with fist weapons. Or if you're messing around, but then why min-max really hard?
    It's not that uncommon to have 502/509 fist weps but 489 only daggers. And even if you don't respec for every farmed boss, that doesn't mean that you can't still try to do your best at the spec you're playing.

    Does anyone have any high logs from combat with rupture?
    Check mines.

  16. #16
    Herald of the Titans T Man's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2010
    Location
    London
    Posts
    2,548
    Man I feel so bad, I was only checking 25man HC logs, will see what numbers are like in 10man.

  17. #17
    edit: removed as change in mop and point now invalid. ( which is a shame as lowered skill ceiling)
    Last edited by Viglante; 2012-12-05 at 10:45 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Obelodalix View Post
    What the fuck did you just say.

  18. #18
    Hi, I would like some clarification on this as there seems to be split opinions.

    When you apply rupture for e.g during deep insight, 1) do all ticks, tick as if present in deep insight or 2) does the damage change as insight level changes.

    If 1) is the case I can see it being viable using rupture during deep insight
    If 2) is the case obv it would be a waste to rupture as Evis would do more damage

    Of course if 2) was the case you would likely rupture during moderate insight to get the max duration during deep insight ;p

    Any help/clarification would be great!!

    Thx in advance

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Viglante View Post
    I would add the bold as well as it allows the later ticks to use the medium/deep insight making them tick for more meaning the rupture damg actualy did more than the evis would have done. or thats how it worked pre-mop patch i not tried it since as been sub/assasination/cleave only combat(dogs).
    Insights and/or rupture has changed so it only takes into account your current buffs when you use it so it won't gain yellow/red buffs when you ruptured in green. On the other hand because of it's duration now if you rupture in yellow you won't be able to in red without clipping and that's not a good thing. So I'd say for starters just use it in green and red insights.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 05:56 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzie03 View Post
    Hi, I would like some clarification on this as there seems to be split opinions.

    When you apply rupture for e.g during deep insight, 1) do all ticks, tick as if present in deep insight or 2) does the damage change as insight level changes.

    If 1) is the case I can see it being viable using rupture during deep insight
    If 2) is the case obv it would be a waste to rupture as Evis would do more damage

    Of course if 2) was the case you would likely rupture during moderate insight to get the max duration during deep insight ;p

    Any help/clarification would be great!!

    Thx in advance
    All ticks will use your current insight level. So yes using it in red should be a slight dps gain.

    One thing I don't really know is how keeping a light rupture rotation up influences combat's cooldowns. Would we get more dps (I believe we would) by using just evis and maybe getting an extra KS or AD/SB up than using rupture as well and getting 1 less KS,AB+SB cd during a fight (so a timing problem basically).

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Avengerx View Post
    One thing I don't really know is how keeping a light rupture rotation up influences combat's cooldowns. Would we get more dps (I believe we would) by using just evis and maybe getting an extra KS or AD/SB up than using rupture as well and getting 1 less KS,AB+SB cd during a fight (so a timing problem basically).
    Rupture triggers CD reduction and anticipation charges, just like eviscerate. It's (very slightly) better for getting AR/KS off CD because it costs less energy :P

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •