Unfair pvp, haters are hating, I am hating.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

50k damage over 8 seconds is a very very tame amount of damage and easily healed.

Not when stacked with other DoTs.

Have you been in the BGs (not tame arenas)? Literally 1/2 the team is DoTTed. DKs/Kitties/Shamans and their damn healing debuff...and 1 Cleanse every 8 seconds.

That is NOT balance. That's Blizzard having PvP and not caring of any consequences.

[Deleted]

Sounds like pvp power is the stat that is causing all the problems right now by negating all base resilience.

I'd say it needs to be drastically scaled back on all pvp gear. When base resilience is negated in gear from the first season, how bad will it be when we are near the end of the xpack?

Seems stupid they put resilience in to stop pvp one shots then they put in this stupid pvp power stat to negate it and bring us back to vanilla style one shot pvp.

[Seezer]

When you were able to kite them all over because they weren't good at countering such a strategy it still worked fine. Then Avatar came along... Fortunately it was nerfed, a bit more than I would've suggested but I won't complain. Skilled Warriors were able to counter being kited.

Ya, the effort of botting in BGs affords them free kills in world PvP. Blizz said they wanted to move away from this crap but all they did was make it a lot worse.

Yeah, because every pvp'er bots. Way to grasp at straws. Desperate straws.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 10:25 AM ----------

Didn't they introduce 40% base resilience because they didn't want this to happen though?
A shame it failed so miserably though, damage is so insane that you can barely tell that the base resilience actually exists.

If base resilience is all that they have, they're going to take a beating.

[Demetrion]

Here's something which will, enlighten and perhaps put a smile on your face. A story which describes your screenshot with such precision that it's just amazing:

I was just out in the krasarang wilds, and this fierce wild flamingo jumped me. Let me preface this by saying, it didn’t stand a chance; to put it in perspective, this flamingo had a better chance of acquiring a spaceship and flying to the Alpha Centauri solar system. Anyways, I proceeded to one shot this bird, reminiscent of seasons past when Kurum would resummon 4-5 monkeys only to have them die instantly. After looting this retarded bird, I spot out of the corner of my eye a seasoned level 87 Orc warrior. So feeling pretty good after that flamingo win, I decide to take on a real challenger. I stealth over and open with my coveted cheap-shot ability. Once he stabilizes at 30%, he decides to use his AoE kidneyshot ability, there was no cheating this death. A few 200k’s later;
I’m at the graveyard wondering where I went wrong in life.
As I sat there pondering my life choices, I came to a grim realization; I had become the fierce wild flamingo.

Welcome to the MoP PVP!

[Deleted]

Another QQ thread. Get some pvp gear and understand the war between Horde and The Alliance!

[Deleted]

I think pvp has got a lot of more serious problems, than the one discribed by OT

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:55 AM ----------

I mean: you just can't get a bg in the morning that isn't swamped with bots and/or afkers. Think that's a far more serious matter.

[glowzone]

Base resillience means you won't die so easily if low geared players fight eachother(think the low lvl rogue oneshotting with ambush stuff)
Whene a high pvp geared player comes into play, well, you're screwed still.

Is that fine? Well,in my opinion, yes.
Pvp powers goal is to stop pve gear from being viable in arena, so this is the downside of it, and for me personally, the good things outway the bad things.

[ringpriest]

Absolutely 100% agree. If someone has taken the time and effort to grind out some PvP Power gear, they should win over someone with no resilience gear.

I sympathize with the OP.

I miss the time in this game where if you actually knew your class, you had a chance against someone of equal level and gear, without frankly gimmicky stats like PvP Power or Resilience. WoW has always been about Gear > Skill to a certain degree, but now it seems more like Gear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skill. Ah well, not my problem anymore.

[glowzone]

I sympathize with the OP.

I miss the time in this game where if you actually knew your class, you had a chance against someone of equal level and gear, without frankly gimmicky stats like PvP Power or Resilience. WoW has always been about Gear > Skill to a certain degree, but now it seems more like Gear >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Skill. Ah well, not my problem anymore.

You mean the wonderfull wonderfull time where pvp gear was simply insanely time consuming to get,only handed to a handfull of people and even thene the grandmarshal/high warlord gear simply wasn't as good as the higher tiers of raid gear.

You mean the time whene pom/trinket/pyro could oneshot pretty much anything, rogue's with a brain solo'd people naked with a white dagger?

I was there, it wasn't better thene now, they did all the changes they did for a reason, some worked out better thene others, but the changes did have a good effect overall, separting pve and pvp was needed, else one will be forced to do the other, because it's easier or simply has the superiour items.

[Kazmodius]

Another QQ thread. Get some pvp gear and understand the war between Horde and The Alliance!

There is like no arguments in your quote, and what is a forum for if it's not for discussion?

[BeastmasterGuardian]

Premeditation > Shadowstep > Ambush, disarm, vanish. Then once he is out of combat, SAP for 80 seconds and steal the kill. L2Rogue mate Also, quest in PvP gear Pro-tip

[Zankoku]

Just from the screeny....

3 ticks of Deep Wounds, 2 ticks of Recup. No incoming damage from Warrior or their buddy during the DW/Recup time. That is 9-12 seconds of the warrior ignoring you. 4 of those seconds you were stunned, so lets give you 5 to 7 seconds of actions. During those 5-7 seconds, (assuming a base 1.5 GCD) you have between 3.33 to 4.66 available actions. You didn't gain or lose any buffs during that time, so you did not attempt to redo your opener. You did not attempt to get any healing. You did not pot.

That is why you lost.

Your inactions (and lack of awareness of the buffs the Warrior had) killed you. Heroic Strike hit you for over 200k, which meant the Warrior had TfB stacks. You should have been aware, and Disarmed the Warrior, or stuned the Warrior.

[ringpriest]

You mean the wonderfull wonderfull time where pvp gear was simply insanely time consuming to get,only handed to a handfull of people and even thene the grandmarshal/high warlord gear simply wasn't as good as the higher tiers of raid gear.

You mean the time whene pom/trinket/pyro could oneshot pretty much anything, rogue's with a brain solo'd people naked with a white dagger?

I was there, it wasn't better thene now, they did all the changes they did for a reason, some worked out better thene others, but the changes did have a good effect overall, separting pve and pvp was needed, else one will be forced to do the other, because it's easier or simply has the superiour items.

I meant the time when having roughly equivalent quality gear - no matter where it was obtained or what 'type' of gear it was - meant you had a chance if you knew what you were doing. Yes, overpowered near-instagib combos were around then, just like they are now looking at the OP's combat log. I was there too, then, and I disagree on over the overall effect of the cumulative changes, I think it has been negative.

Has MoP finally succeeded in separating PvP and PvE? Because Cataclysm certainly didn't. And I'm also unclear on how running BGs, knowing you're going to be facerolled by people with full gear PvP gear for dozens and dozens of hours (in BGs full of bots, apparently) is superior that the status of PvP in, say, BC. At least in BC if I played my toon intelligently, I could count on being useful for something other than racking up the other side's number of KBs.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Another QQ thread. Get some pvp gear and understand the war between Horde and The Alliance!

Where do these drivebys come from, seriously?

The gear doesn't help. Upgraded CP gear is like cloth on plate. If you're hit with 164k+ hits with multiple fast ticking DoTs, even if you had 80% resil, you're going down like a PvE geared player.

Scaling and abilities are screwed up now.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 08:36 PM ----------

Has MoP finally succeeded in separating PvP and PvE?

No, stats are still shared.

Biggest problem of it all for PvP itself (and why Blizzard claimed arena was a mistake) is tailoring PvP around arenas. In arenas they're down to 2min rounds, as it's all about bursting down the enemy. It goes against R/BGs, as it operates like a raid with objectives (it's not about winning a round in 2mins, it's about holding/defending).

[mmmmmmmBacon]

Not when stacked with other DoTs.

Have you been in the BGs (not tame arenas)? Literally 1/2 the team is DoTTed. DKs/Kitties/Shamans and their damn healing debuff...and 1 Cleanse every 8 seconds.

That is NOT balance. That's Blizzard having PvP and not caring of any consequences.

Considering I've gotten a full set of honor gear and upgraded any piece that isn't a conquest gear...yes, I've done my share of bgs. Dots are not what kills players unless (as i've said) they're severely undergeared. You are blind and trying to pin the problem on something that is not an issue: dots do pitiful damage with the exception of an affliction warlock with demon soul up and channeling malefic grasp.

Shamans have 2 dots that both do pitiful damage. Unholy dks are still very rare and the issue with their damage is necrotic strike with cds up, not their dots. Ferals dots' have never been dispellable.

[
Biggest problem of it all for PvP itself (and why Blizzard claimed arena was a mistake) is tailoring PvP around arenas. In arenas they're down to 2min rounds, as it's all about bursting down the enemy. It goes against R/BGs, as it operates like a raid with objectives (it's not about winning a round in 2mins, it's about holding/defending).

PvP balance (if you want to call it that) is aimed towards 3s, and rbgs. However, one thing you seem to ignore is that in rbgs there are generally 4 healers on a team, where your arguement about dots being unhealable is void: the only thing that people would die to in rbgs would be a death knight using gorefiend's grasp, and then 2 demonology locks would pop demon soul and chaos wave the entire team and kill them in 2 globals.

And as for arena being balanced around being 2 min matches, again, wrong. Why don't you learn yourself some pvp and watch this guy stream: http://www.twitch.tv/VanguardsTV

He's #2 on Bloodlust, generally regarded as the most pvp-centric battlegroup, and it certainly doesn't seem like they rely on 'op dots' to kill their opponents.

A reasonable number of their games are over 5-10 minutes long, though they do have games where they very quickly force enemy cooldowns without using their own, and then gib someone in a stun. None of their games end up issues where they die slowly to dots because their paladin healer can't cleanse them enough.

[Kevyne-Shandris]

Considering I've gotten a full set of honor gear and upgraded any piece that isn't a conquest gear...yes, I've done my share of bgs. Dots are not what kills players unless (as i've said) they're severely undergeared.

Nope, as the evidence doesn't show it.

You're not realizing how much those DoTs are affecting the health and the abilities to heal. You can't just heal through them, as many are designed to heal the opponent; 50% healing debuff and more. BUT, they're on players and the combat logs will show, they died due to them. They add a constant pressure, and to the extent now they can't be removed. Before they could as there were effective counters with instant cast times.

---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:21 PM ----------

PvP balance (if you want to call it that) is aimed towards 3s, and rbgs.

No, arenas. Has been since the inception of arenas. It's why R/BGs have suffered so long. Burst damage has no relation to holding/defending that is important in R/BGs. Arenas are designed for fast matches with heavy burst damage. R/BGs are designed for a balance between some burst to kill attackers, but also survival. Either were changed in Cata to prevent healers doing their jobs, too (no more extended fights due to it).

[mmmmmmmBacon]

You're not realizing how much those DoTs are affecting the health and the abilities to heal. You can't just heal through them, as many are designed to heal the opponent; 50% healing debuff and more. BUT, they're on players and the combat logs will show, they died due to them. They add a constant pressure, and to the extent now they can't be removed. Before they could as there were effective counters with instant cast times.[COLOR="red"]

...What? Designed to heal the opponent?

Yes dots are constant pressure, but it is still easily healed through. The average tick from a priest's vampiric touch is around 7800 with 60% resilience (easily reached while aiming for socket bonuses and not gemming pure resilience) and the priest sitting at around 40% pvp power (again, an easily attained number, more on the low end), and ticks every 3 seconds for 15 seconds (ignoring haste for simplicity).

That is an abysmal number compared to the instant cast mind blasts for 78k, or shadowfiends autoattacking for 33k. Let alone the numbers other classes can do, like frost mages critting frost bombs for 140k while you're stuck in a deep freeze.

And still you forget that Cleanse back before the change could only clear 1 magic debuff at a time, where as now it can clear everything on the target, forcing whoever's dots you just cleared out to recast them all, taking several globals, where as it's only a single global for you.

Also, the pvp healing debuffs are only 15% through battle fatigue, and then 25% from the various mortal wounds debuffs (only applied by warriors, hunters, rogues, ww monks, and felguards). I believe they are additive, to 40%.

No, arenas. Has been since the inception of arenas. It's why R/BGs have suffered so long. Burst damage has no relation to holding/defending that is important in R/BGs. Arenas are designed for fast matches with heavy burst damage. R/BGs are designed for a balance between some burst to kill attackers, but also survival. Either were changed in Cata to prevent healers doing their jobs, too (no more extended fights due to it).

If anything it's arenas that have stagnated since the inception of RBGs. And on the contrary, burst damage is everything in RBGs, when you have to deal with 4 to 5 enemy healers on the opposing team, and mana being a non-issue unless you are allowed to chain cast your heals for 5 minutes without-stopping. This was the reason rogues were so popular in RBGs during cataclysm (maybe still, though they are significantly weaker since they can actually die), with smoke bomb being able to isolate a flag carrier from the 4 healers he had, and allowing the rogue's team to attempt to front load as much damage as they could in 1-2 seconds before the warrior would heroic leap out of the smoke bomb, or a paladin would bubble and run into the smoke bomb to lay on hands him. If the attacking team could not time their burst cooldowns on their targets effectively before cc's wore off, the defending team would win through attrition.

Nope, as the evidence doesn't show it.

Plenty of evidence in this thread to support you being a poor authority on pvp balance, being unable to get out of the 1500s in arenas or rated bgs, and not even having a full set of pvp gear this season, with how long it's gone on.

[Crawford]

Why do people always complain about gear beating skill? If you're so skilled why don't you have any gear?

[Deleted]

Why do people always complain about gear beating skill? If you're so skilled why don't you have any gear?

To be fair, some people just didn't commit themselves to gearing up, I still don't have a malevolent wep on my Hunter and at 2100 when we win it's in spite of gear. I'm not saying they don't deserve some items because they committed to gearing up but when people in your bracket are in tier 2 and there's nothing you can do about that extra pvp power, it becomes a problem. I would consider myself skilled without gear, I haven't got Gladiator but I do have four different classes with Challenger but a weeks lack of action sets up a stone wall in which everybody below you can't beat you because of skill, but everybody above you has equal skill and better gear.

[Crawford]

To be fair, some people just didn't commit themselves to gearing up, I still don't have a malevolent wep on my Hunter and at 2100 when we win it's in spite of gear. I'm not saying they don't deserve some items because they committed to gearing up but when people in your bracket are in tier 2 and there's nothing you can do about that extra pvp power, it becomes a problem. I would consider myself skilled without gear, I haven't got Gladiator but I do have four different classes with Challenger but a weeks lack of action sets up a stone wall in which everybody below you can't beat you because of skill, but everybody above you has equal skill and better gear.

Gear equalizes pretty quickly when you're capping points at a high rating, even if you miss a few weeks. Extending the gearing process by 24000 cp with the upgrade system really didn't help flatten that curve, but everyone has gear by midseason, even at sub-competitive levels.

People without gear are people who don't pvp.