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  1. #1
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    [Fire] Fire Spec Redesign Idea

    The Fire spec for Mages has been one that, while the base attributes remain the same, undergoes a lot of constant change due to balancing issues, creating a spec that is not necessarily altogether. I have synthesized a redesign for the entire spec utilizing a new resource, Heat, that may possibly make the spec a fun, reinvented spec for Mages.

    Fire Mage Redesign:

    - New Resource: Heat
    - New Abilities
    - New Mastery, Thermophile
    - Maintain same baseline spells

    Heat:

    Heat is a new resource the Fire Mage will use that works similar to Demonic Fury. It is placed on a scale of 0 to 1000, starting at 0. Spells generate and also decrease your Heat. Each point of Heat is worth 0.03% crit, making 100 Heat 3% crit, and 1000 Heat up to 30% crit bonus. Heat also decays, so proper DPS will be gained by maintaining this resource, which is also decaying at a rate of 10 per second, up to 15 per second while moving.
    Having Heat give crit will eliminate the general RNG nature of the spec. This will also place stats such as Haste or Mastery at a higher priority, due to the higher levels of crit experienced and the need to cast spells faster to generate Heat. Heat will also be displayed as a visual effect, as your Heat rises, your character will be enveloped in a Fiery Aura. Higher levels of Heat will also empower certain abilities.

    Heat Values of Baseline Spells:

    Fireball – Generates 50 Heat
    Pyroblast – Costs 200 Heat
    Scorch – Costs 25 Heat
    Mage Bomb – Each balanced to produce 150 Heat by explosion, full duration, or around the cooldown
    Inferno Blast – Generates 100 Heat

    Rotation Example:


    The idea of the rotation is to maintain Heat amounts at high levels for the duration of the fight, however switching in Pyroblast for Fireball can provide burst and ways to spend excess Heat generated. At the beginning of each fight, you start at 0 Heat, so a fight could start out like so:

    *Pull*
    Cast Magma Flow CD
    Living Bomb
    Fireball - 100 Heat
    Fireball - 200 Heat
    Fireball - 300 Heat - Crit - Heating Up
    Inferno Blast - 500 Heat - Hot Streak
    Pyroblast!
    LB Explodes - 800 Heat
    Living Bomb
    Fireball - 900 Heat - Combustion Ends
    Fireball - 950 Heat - Crit - Heating Up
    Fireball - 1000 Heat - No Crit - Heating Up Ends
    Pyroblast - 800 Heat - Etc Etc Etc

    Spell Changes:

    Mastery – Now called Thermophile, it increases the damage done by your Fire Spells as your Heat increases by X percentage. This gives Fire ramp up DPS, but very good sustained DPS once up. Ignite is not being removed, it is now just a regular DoT that is applied to the target.

    Combustion – 1.5 min CD – Combustion now absorbs all Heat on the target (up to 1000) and applies it as a DoT, dealing X Fire Damage over 20 seconds.

    Pyroblast – Only change is the cast time is now the same as Fireball.

    New Spells:

    Meteor - AoE - Spend all current Heat creating a meteor, crashing into your target and dealing X Fire damage to all enemies within a 10 yard radius. Damage is increased 10% per 100 Heat. Also places ignite on all targets that were hit.

    Magma Flows – 3min CD – Abilities now generate twice as much Heat for the next 20 seconds.

    Current Reviews and Ideas:

    This section will cover all possible newer spells or talent changes that may be incorporated into the build.

    Phoenix Rising - Replaces Cauterize - If killed, you come back to life as a phoenix for 20 seconds, able to cast your normal spells and abilities*

    *There is a large demand for a Phoenix pet CD, or ability. This is still up to a lot of debate, and will be looked into for the future. Keep suggesting ideas!

    Critical Mass – Removing this talent entirely may make for better scaling, not for our DPS, but to keep the specialization in check, and keeping Haste and Mastery prioritized over Crit. Will be addressed later.

    Empowering Abilities – With Heat increasing, it could also empower certain abilities, i.e. Flamestrike DoT becoming stronger, Dragon’s Breath becoming larger and more powerful. Will be addressed later.

    Balance Issues – If this spec were applied now, Fire Mages would be extremely over powered. There would have to be a lot of balance testing and working around with the Mastery and scales to see how it would balance out. I left things ambiguous for the most part, with X percentages or damage instead of inserting a number. Math is currently not my game for this. The base for the spec and foundation is what is to be worked on.

    Bomb Scaling - Bombs might scale off how many targets are in the area, so the more targets, the more Heat you would get as it does damage.

    Flame Orb - A lot want this CD back, however in a better use than what it was last expansion. Could be used to generate heat, or use heat to deal damage. Feel free to throw suggestions at it.

    Final Notes:

    Obviously this could never happen mid expansion, however getting this out there early on could provide possible future look for Blizzard, and maybe get some ideas incorporated. Will this ever be implemented? Highly unlikely. Is it fun to theorize and develop a spec idea? Yes. The more support, the higher chance this could at least mean something small in the grand scheme of things, so if you could spread the word about this idea, and get others to support it, it would be greatly appreciated. Feel free as well to throw your suggestions and ideas into the mix. This is our class and spec, let us build it together.

    If you wish to comment in game or anything of the sort, my battletag is Eraedis#1152. Feel free to add me.
    Last edited by LocNess; 2013-03-01 at 01:01 AM.
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  2. #2
    Simple, elegant, I like it!

    Might want to take it up on official forums. I don't really have hope that developers will consider it but you never know.
    Last edited by Azlarn; 2012-12-03 at 03:35 PM.

  3. #3
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    Simple, elegant, I like it!

    Might want to take it up on official forums. I don't really have hope that developers will consider it but you never know.
    I would like to see more support and input before I create a final finished and clean version. I know a lot of aspects are currently overpowered (mastery might need tweaking, pyroblast as well seems a bit strong with this build).
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  4. #4
    Moderator Shangalar's Avatar
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    This idea actually seems quite nice, although it seems to me like your numbers at the top when defining abilities are half of what they are in the "simulation". Maybe have Fireball generate more Heat, Inferno Blast generate less Heat and Pyroblast spend slightly less Heat.

    For instance 100 50 100. Or 100 50 150 to balance it out. You gain Heat from Bombs while having a zero-Heat cycle using Fireball - Inferno Blast - Pyroblast. Since not every Fireball is going to Crit, you'll slowly be ramping up on the Heat.

    Aha! I figured out you used the new Combustion at start, that's why you had double the Heat increase. However, I'd still rework as I wrote up and change Combustion to something else, like another spell that spends Heat and depending on Heat spent grants a buff or a spell or something.

    But I'm loving the concept.

  5. #5
    Ignite has been with us from the start of the game (even if the debuff limit prevented you from using it) and most players have grown fairly in love with Combustion, I would miss them dearly if they were removed

  6. #6
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shangalar View Post
    This idea actually seems quite nice, although it seems to me like your numbers at the top when defining abilities are half of what they are in the "simulation". Maybe have Fireball generate more Heat, Inferno Blast generate less Heat and Pyroblast spend slightly less Heat.

    For instance 100 50 100. Or 100 50 150 to balance it out. You gain Heat from Bombs while having a zero-Heat cycle using Fireball - Inferno Blast - Pyroblast. Since not every Fireball is going to Crit, you'll slowly be ramping up on the Heat.

    Aha! I figured out you used the new Combustion at start, that's why you had double the Heat increase. However, I'd still rework as I wrote up and change Combustion to something else, like another spell that spends Heat and depending on Heat spent grants a buff or a spell or something.

    But I'm loving the concept.
    I was thinking of the typical "Meteor" "Phoenix" "Magma" stuff for spells that could be thrown in, but haven't put to much thought into it.

    Meteor - Spend all current heat, damage increases by 10% per 100 heat - AoE - Places Ignite on all targets that are hit

    Phoenix Rising - Replaces Cauterize - If killed, you come back to life as a phoenix for 20 seconds, able to cast your normal spells and abilities

    Magma Flows - Channeled - Places a DoT on the target causing them to take % extra damage from Fire spells - Generates 10 Heat per second
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  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    Magma Flows - Channeled - Places a DoT on the target causing them to take % extra damage from Fire spells - Generates 10 Heat per second
    If you're channeling Magma Flows, you're not doing any other spells, so the only thing getting the +dmg increase would be current dots on it. Doesn't seem too useful. Unless ofc you channel it and the debuff remains for a while after you're done however if it becomes mandatory in the rotation, I can see it becoming somewhat tedious to keep up depending on how long it will last.

    Also, since you said you need more feedback, here's the rest of mine, for the OP and your other ideas:

    Once you're close to 1000 Heat, I don't see you doing non-crits much so maybe that will be a bit too much, some number tweaking should fix that. Will the ignite from meteor work as ignite does now? If so, what will increase its dmg since your mastery is something else or will it be a flat % of the dmg done?

    Perhaps you can have Phoenix Form as some other dps cooldown and leave cauterize as is? For example, giving Phoenix Form a cooldown and making it useable only when on full Heat and giving you a damage/haste/whatnot increase, or alternatively, make it give you 500 Heat from the get-go (thinking about the start of the fight) and perhaps increasing Heat generation by a small amount (thinking 50%) and maybe something else to make it preferable over Combustion and have Combustion unusable while Phoenix Form is up. Both of the aspects of the Phoenix Form and the Combustion seem to couple nicely with Alter Time as it currently is.

  8. #8
    As a Frost Mage, this seems interesting to me. And the reason why I like seeing nerfs or the lack of buffs to a certain spec is things like this. It makes people think in new ways to make the game more interesting instead. (Though most people will still cry "gief back mah damuge!!!11oneonetwotwo"

    The problem I see here, one of the reasons why I have doubt it would be adapted is that it would give Fire a huge change in the "middle of an expansion" (I know it's the start but you know what I mean). And it's more likely to come towards the next expansion.
    But of course that would mean it would seem "unfair" to the other specs if they didn't get a similar overhaul. Yes there have been changes where this has happen but that doesn't stop people from complaining their pants off. And I'm sure Blizzard love to have a player base in tears.

    Interesting ideas though!

  9. #9
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    If you're channeling Magma Flows, you're not doing any other spells, so the only thing getting the +dmg increase would be current dots on it. Doesn't seem too useful. Unless ofc you channel it and the debuff remains for a while after you're done however if it becomes mandatory in the rotation, I can see it becoming somewhat tedious to keep up depending on how long it will last.

    Also, since you said you need more feedback, here's the rest of mine, for the OP and your other ideas:

    Once you're close to 1000 Heat, I don't see you doing non-crits much so maybe that will be a bit too much, some number tweaking should fix that. Will the ignite from meteor work as ignite does now? If so, what will increase its dmg since your mastery is something else or will it be a flat % of the dmg done?

    Perhaps you can have Phoenix Form as some other dps cooldown and leave cauterize as is? For example, giving Phoenix Form a cooldown and making it useable only when on full Heat and giving you a damage/haste/whatnot increase, or alternatively, make it give you 500 Heat from the get-go (thinking about the start of the fight) and perhaps increasing Heat generation by a small amount (thinking 50%) and maybe something else to make it preferable over Combustion and have Combustion unusable while Phoenix Form is up. Both of the aspects of the Phoenix Form and the Combustion seem to couple nicely with Alter Time as it currently is.
    For the DoT, it would work as a debuff that is placed lasting 30 seconds or so.

    The reason why I gave Phoenix the description I did as in WoW nature, Phoenix's always come back to life a second time (key note: Alar), and thus it would be a DPS version of Spirit of Redemption.

    Ignite would just be a debuff from Meteor, which would primarily be used for AoE. If there was a Phoenix Form, I would feel it too close to Demo form from warlocks.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    As a Frost Mage, this seems interesting to me. And the reason why I like seeing nerfs or the lack of buffs to a certain spec is things like this. It makes people think in new ways to make the game more interesting instead. (Though most people will still cry "gief back mah damuge!!!11oneonetwotwo"

    The problem I see here, one of the reasons why I have doubt it would be adapted is that it would give Fire a huge change in the "middle of an expansion" (I know it's the start but you know what I mean). And it's more likely to come towards the next expansion.
    But of course that would mean it would seem "unfair" to the other specs if they didn't get a similar overhaul. Yes there have been changes where this has happen but that doesn't stop people from complaining their pants off. And I'm sure Blizzard love to have a player base in tears.

    Interesting ideas though!
    There's really nothing you can do about people who just don't like it if their class/spec don't get an overhaul. Blizzard has a number resources to work with and as it stands now, they won't be able to make everyone happy.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    There's really nothing you can do about people who just don't like it if their class/spec don't get an overhaul. Blizzard has a number resources to work with and as it stands now, they won't be able to make everyone happy.
    Oh I know that. But this is a pretty major overhaul which is why I doubt you would really see this go into the game. I still like the idea but I have my doubts that it would get adapted.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    For the DoT, it would work as a debuff that is placed lasting 30 seconds or so.

    The reason why I gave Phoenix the description I did as in WoW nature, Phoenix's always come back to life a second time (key note: Alar), and thus it would be a DPS version of Spirit of Redemption.

    Ignite would just be a debuff from Meteor, which would primarily be used for AoE. If there was a Phoenix Form, I would feel it too close to Demo form from warlocks.
    Well, honestly, I think many people wouldn't like to see Cauterize get removed. But what I was getting at was that a "cooldown but big damage" spell is what we need to spice things up.

    Furthermore, I don't think it feels that much like demo locks. Demo locks in demon form get totally new spells, which wouldn't happen, and they lose their resource instead of keeping it/gaining it.

    Perhaps not a phoenix form but a "Summon Phoenix" ability could work that just summons the phoenix and hits the target once and does a lot of dmg and is on a semi-small cooldown. I don't know for others but I've been craving something like that ever since I started playing mage.I'm just throwing out ideas here.

  13. #13
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    Oh I know that. But this is a pretty major overhaul which is why I doubt you would really see this go into the game. I still like the idea but I have my doubts that it would get adapted.
    Always worth a shot though. Demo Locks turned out extremely successful in most people's opinions, this plays off of that idea while possibly solving the plight of the Fire Mage. I believe this set up would get rid of the crit scaling and prioritize Haste and Mastery above Crit.
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  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    Oh I know that. But this is a pretty major overhaul which is why I doubt you would really see this go into the game. I still like the idea but I have my doubts that it would get adapted.
    As do I, in my first post I said that and I still stand by it. However we did see overhauls go through (Paladins and Warlocks come to mind). Mages haven't really gotten an overhaul.

  15. #15
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Azlarn View Post
    Well, honestly, I think many people wouldn't like to see Cauterize get removed. But what I was getting at was that a "cooldown but big damage" spell is what we need to spice things up.

    Furthermore, I don't think it feels that much like demo locks. Demo locks in demon form get totally new spells, which wouldn't happen, and they lose their resource instead of keeping it/gaining it.

    Perhaps not a phoenix form but a "Summon Phoenix" ability could work that just summons the phoenix and hits the target once and does a lot of dmg and is on a semi-small cooldown. I don't know for others but I've been craving something like that ever since I started playing mage.I'm just throwing out ideas here.
    I do love my Cauterize too, it saves me all the time I just fell in love with the idea of dying and being "reborn" for a period of time. I know there is a huge support base for having a phoenix pet. Maybe each spec could have its own version of mirror image? Arcane gets MI, Frost gets a couple extra water elementals, Fire gets a phoenix pet.
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  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by LocNess View Post
    I do love my Cauterize too, it saves me all the time I just fell in love with the idea of dying and being "reborn" for a period of time. I know there is a huge support base for having a phoenix pet. Maybe each spec could have its own version of mirror image? Arcane gets MI, Frost gets a couple extra water elementals, Fire gets a phoenix pet.
    Another idea could be to bring back the way that the old water elemental worked. Something like.. 3 minute cooldown and up for 30 seconds or something? I'm not saying it should be a carbon copy of that one, nor the new elemental that is up all the time. Give fire another cooldown that could be a nifty pet like that. Some people will hate the idea though because "Eww pet I'm not a hunter blah blah blah" but it would be more like a DPS cooldown that you can control a bit more than the mirror images.

  17. #17
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Equim View Post
    Another idea could be to bring back the way that the old water elemental worked. Something like.. 3 minute cooldown and up for 30 seconds or something? I'm not saying it should be a carbon copy of that one, nor the new elemental that is up all the time. Give fire another cooldown that could be a nifty pet like that. Some people will hate the idea though because "Eww pet I'm not a hunter blah blah blah" but it would be more like a DPS cooldown that you can control a bit more than the mirror images.
    I am ok with pet CD's. I hate the Water Elemental by all glory, and I know some Mages love it while others hate it. Again I will take all of this feedback, and re propose a cleaned up version later if it gets enough support.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 11:53 AM ----------

    Cleaned it up a bit, added my own thoughts at the bottom, made it prettier etc. etc.
    Battletag: Rhaegas#1141
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  18. #18
    Some pretty cool ideas. As for scorch, I would have it something akin to what it is now. Cost no heat, but generate no heat either. That way it keeps it's roll of being useful for moving or for when running out of resources (be it heat/mana), but without being the thing you spam to generate heat quickly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 05:31 PM ----------

    I think you'd also need some kind of base decay on heat to stop stacking it to 1000 and then just scorch spamming. Maybe a decay of 5-10 every second?
    Last edited by jonny888; 2012-12-03 at 05:31 PM.

  19. #19
    I love the new resource idea, especially for the fact that it appears to eliminate (largely decrease, anyway) rng dependency. I guess that would also decrease over-scaling, and thus, hard-hitting nerf bats.

    I, like many people, have always liked the idea of a phoenix for Fire. Though, now that I've skimmed through some of this thread, a pet phoenix wouldn't be the way to go in my opinion. Pets can be buggy on certain fights. Perhaps put the phoenix idea and the new combustion AND the existing combustion dot into one cooldown spell. This way, people who enjoy building massive ignites can keep combustion dot, but it won't have to be too op and scale out of whack.

    Imagine we build up our Heat to 1000 to gain our full 30% crit buff, get that big ignite and combust it for the combustion dot, just like we do now. But in addition to that you become a phoenix for 20(?) seconds with all regular Fire abilities doing more damage proportional to the Heat used, and a new inferno blast ability just for the phoenix form. This inferno blast would be able to spread dots to ALL nearby targets at 33%(?) of the dot damage and take 10(?) seconds off of your phoenix form buff. Phoenix form also doubles heat generation.

    So the phoenix form would be a single target cooldown AND aoe cooldown, but not both.



    ---------------

    Instead of lasting X amount of seconds, the above phoenix form could consume the Heat bar over time, returning you to caster form at 0 Heat. The phoenix's inferno blast would cost 500(+?) Heat.
    Last edited by chrisnumbers; 2012-12-03 at 05:41 PM.

  20. #20
    Moderator LocNess's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by jonny888 View Post
    Some pretty cool ideas. As for scorch, I would have it something akin to what it is now. Cost no heat, but generate no heat either. That way it keeps it's roll of being useful for moving or for when running out of resources (be it heat/mana), but without being the thing you spam to generate heat quickly.

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 05:31 PM ----------

    I think you'd also need some kind of base decay on heat to stop stacking it to 1000 and then just scorch spamming. Maybe a decay of 5-10 every second?
    I have an inactivity decay to the same rate of Demonic Fury. 10 every second might be a bit on the high end, but could balance out well with the amount of damage maintaining consistent 900 Heat.

    The scorch is there to still be a dump of some sort. There is the issue that if you do not have heat at the beginning of the fight, you would not be able to cast it which is not fun. Still looking into it.
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