I'd rather revert mana tea change and reduce mana costs back

[Dreyo]

I'm still not clear on why they added the mana tea crit effect. The only purpose I can identify is to make crit a more attractive stat, but from my understanding it was already an attractive stat before this change.

And so we now have a huge amount more mana due to more tea, too much mana so they make everything cost 30% more. I'm sorry, but I don't like it. I don't like the way the new jab feels while fistweaving. If we have too much mana, then un-buff mana tea. It was great before, it'll still be great, and crit is still a good stat for gear. But it always feels like a bad button press to hit Jab right now, and it shouldn't. Even if all the other options are equally bad numerically, they don't feel equally bad, at least not to me. I expect SCK to have a hefty mana cost, it's an aoe heal. I expect Soothing Mist to drain my mana, it's a casted heal spell. But jab, in particular, feels like it got the shaft, and the entire fistweaving playstyle just feels wrong to me now.

[Deleted]

The crit change was an intended buff to eminence healing

[TheWindWalker]

The crit change was an intended buff to eminence healing

And then they increased the cost of jab by 30% essentially cancelling it out.

[Deleted]

And then they increased the cost of jab by 30% essentially cancelling it out.

Did more than cancel it out, made the play style completely unviable

[Dreyo]

Did more than cancel it out, made the play style completely unviable

Worse than that. They made the playstyle completely unfun.

[montross50]

Worse than that. They made the playstyle completely unfun.

That about sums it up for me. Mistweavers will persevere and are still playable after these nerfs. But I particularly enjoyed fistweaving and the unique playstyle it offered. Now it just feels boring.

[Mammoon]

Worse than that. They made the playstyle completely unfun.

This so much. I know it is early, and we will adapt, but this week in raiding was not very fun. Overall the 5.1 changes + hotfixes made the class very dull and boring.

Maybe I was just spoiled from beta + 5.0, but it sucks having completely rerolled and geared a new toon only to have it become tedious and lifeless. Just my opinion, which is what every forum post essentially is (someone's opinion), so feel free to disagree.

[Totaltotemic]

Assuming Mana Tea crit buff and Ascension, the 30% nerf was actually a 30% nerf to values before those buffs were even in place, due to how Mana Tea interacts with the mana costs of Chi-generating spells (More here for all of the math). Reverting all changes would just put us back into the pre-5.1 state of having a lot more mana than other classes. The hotfix was an attempt to balance that, except someone at Blizzard didn't realize how big of a number 30% is in relation to total mana spending.

[timeconsumer26]

The hotfix was an attempt to balance that, except someone at Blizzard didn't realize how big of a number 30% is in relation to total mana spending.

^^^this.
all of the nerfs/changes seem like someone hit an "OHSHIT" button at blizzard which progressed into a series of knee-jerk reactions, as evidenced by the back and forth with mastery change, buff to mana tea, nerf to mana costs, buff to chi gen thru soothing, nerf to chi gen thru soothing, HUGE (30%) nerf to mana costing spells (not to mention trimming RM spreading). This is especially evidenced by the major nerf coming in hotfix form, and the fact that the change to jab only effected the jab version of the spell. i'm probably last to notice this, but only with jab glyphed did i see an increase in mana cost, turned it off, the icon changed to a mace, and the cost went down (i believe because it is technically a different spell). They wanted the mana cost increase out so fast that they didnt even think to add it to all the iterations of jab.

OT: i agree. the crit change added a new element to the playstyle, and improved fistweaving through providing a bigger benefit to rapid chi generation, yet ending a fight nearly GCD capped, with 15 stacks of manatee left, was stupid. the higher the crit got, the more stacks you'd gain, and if you have manatee glyphed you can almost be guaranteed that its spammable on CD... reminds me of spamming judgement on CD on my old holy pally for mana... then they said, we dont want healers to have to use an ability on CD to keep up with mana gen, and made it a passive by putting it into an existing 1min buff... i just want some sort of reasoning from bliz about the direction they want to take us, instead of hotfix nerfs that weren't even tested during the entire PTR... it seemed they were trying to nerf aoe heals, and buff single target thru soothing buff, then they nerfed chi gen back some, and hotfixed EM (which is an inherently flawed big heal due to it being a hot), because it was OP on ONE FIGHT (Tsulong).
all i want is some explanation for their vision for the future of the spec, because at the moment, i have no idea where my spec is headed, and it is obviously not going to stay where it is for very long, which is not good for a new class thats trying to find its niche within a raid that already has 10 unique(ish) classes.
additionally: with the insta-gib that fire mages got, im wondering if bliz just follows WoL rankings, realized most heal fights were dominated by MW, and most DPS went to firemages, then knee-jerked into nerfs, almost without thinking of the context of the class, or even the raid, as a whole. ...
/endrant lol

[TheWindWalker]

This is especially evidenced by the major nerf coming in hotfix form, and the fact that the change to jab only effected the jab version of the spell. i'm probably last to notice this, but only with jab glyphed did i see an increase in mana cost, turned it off, the icon changed to a mace, and the cost went down (i believe because it is technically a different spell). They wanted the mana cost increase out so fast that they didnt even think to add it to all the iterations of jab.

Nope. This just came as a shock to me as well.

[Deleted]

It only shows 9k mana for me, still costs the increased hotfix value though.

[Alltat]

I'm still not clear on why they added the mana tea crit effect. The only purpose I can identify is to make crit a more attractive stat, but from my understanding it was already an attractive stat before this change.

It's what pretty much what everyone was stacking already, yes. The buff to Mana Tea and nerf to mana costs basically meant that you now spend more time drinking tea and less time punching and healing. Very compelling gameplay, isn't it?

The hotfix unfortunately made it pretty clear that they have no idea what direction they're going. "Let's buff Soothing Mist!" "No, let's nerf it!" "Let's nerf mistweaver mana!" "No, let's buff Mana Tea!" "No, let's nerf their mana again!" "Let's make Soothing Mist chi generation less random!" "No, it needs to be more random!" "Let's buff single target healing!" "No, let's nerf it!". I don't think I've ever seen any class changes this confused.

[Yrrildur]

Just play and move on. Yes, the changes are all very contradicting and weird. However, we can still play and succeed after some adaptation.

Posts about nerfs and similar stuff are 8 years old, so please get over it and play. We all know that Blizz does not really care what a small fraction of the community thinks.

[Deleted]

Does Mana Tea scale with Ascension? I'm finding I have very little mana issues and totally not understanding the QQ about the change. Is it low level or low gear scaling that people are having issues with?

[Ceece]

It's a strain, but I'm enjoying it with the changes implemented.

[Deleted]

Does Mana Tea scale with Ascension? I'm finding I have very little mana issues and totally not understanding the QQ about the change. Is it low level or low gear scaling that people are having issues with?

It does, but Chi Brew is still better. Placebo.

[Dreyo]

Chi Brew is only better if you use it on (or near) cooldown, which means you need to actually need the chi at that point in time. Works great in a simulator, works considerably less well in practice.

[DirewolfX]

It only shows 9k mana for me, still costs the increased hotfix value though.

Are you sure? I tested the day of the hotfix. Everything else both showed and cost the increased amounts. Jab showed 9k and was costing me 9k.

That said, I went a little crazy (maybe overboard) regemming to spirit last night, and I actually found that I had more mana than before. Still running power strikes, and not Ascension. Also, my crit is much lower now, since I had to reforge a lot to haste to meet the new cap.

[Deleted]

Certain, I am on european realms though.

---------- Post added 2012-12-04 at 06:29 PM ----------

Chi Brew is only better if you use it on (or near) cooldown, which means you need to actually need the chi at that point in time. Works great in a simulator, works considerably less well in practice.

http://www.temerityofwindrunner.com/...aver/calc.html

It's nearly 3* as effective.

[Amulett]

All these hotfixed /overfixed issues arise from flaw in the gamemechanics of manamanagement of the monk. While it surely is alot of fun to play the monk and feels "new" to have an active regenation mechanic via glyphed manatea and gives you a much more fluid encounterfeeling then with any other healing class, it generates atleast in the big picture a major issue.

Monk Mana with 5.0 and glyphed manatea slowly went from 100% -> 0% over the course of an encounter, you could prolong this by gearing for more spirit and by using tea on cd but there were no big "hickups" like real regen Cooldowns produce and since it was closely connected with spending chi there was also no downtime required in healing. Many approached the monk as a DPS-Class, aiming to be gdc capped and doing something every second of the fight. This was by design intended, as alot of the monk healing is very uncontrollable and you need to build up a secondary ressource to do the real heal-thing.
Thats where Manatea fails, since is not actually a regen method, its more of a Manarefund coming at the cost of a gdc.
Here my reasoning for this statement in some detail:
If you think about it, monk healing (weak heals cost mana, burstheal costs chi) is very rotationary in general. Irregardless of which spells you choose you literally in the big picutre play a 1,1 -> 2 Combo like an early arcane Mage. Gain Chi, Gain Chi / spend Chi. This is even enforced by the maximum Cap of Chi, fixed % Manacosts and a fixed total Manapool. The often criticized "Monk Spinning all the time" type of playstyle is catered. With certain spiritlevels (already reachable soonish at i485+) you simply got to the point where a jab/jab/uplift(or CB) Combo with Manatea use was close to or atleast felt mananeutral. With heroic gear and upgraded gear ppl just replaced jab with SCK (because the manapart of the rotation heals for more) and it fit the same purpose. You often saw monks litereally spending the 10 seconds (dictated by manatea CD) by building and spending 4 chi irregardless of the situation (and maybe stockpiling addintion Chi for a later burst) because Manawise it didnt matter over the duration of the fight. By doing so they pulled insane HPS numbers since Mana became a nonevent in their playstyle. This counts double if you think about the various ways how to gain additional mana. A Monk actually benefits from a Concentration Pot or a Shammy Totem far more then most other classes because its mana use is more linear.
Even without the latest (overdone) hotfix we would have sooner or later run in a situation, purely by growing spiritlevels, where Manatea would have been pushed off the table or even if kept on cd would have lead to a point where the monk would have been very manastable or started reforing gemming out of spirit (like in late DS Schammys and Discs did), especially if they benefitted in the raidenvironment from Totems and hymns and procs/enchantprocs.

The changes and the rng Manatea proc will not solve the problem. In a later tier we will come again to the point where even current costs wont matter as much anymore and monks will start spinning again unless spirit is capped.

This is where other Healingclasses with their nontied "bigger" Manacooldowns are easier to balance. How to fix all this big mess? One way would be to either remove the manatea glyph from the game, increase the manatea cooldown so it doesnt feel like a must click that button type of gameplay, combine it with a reduced manareturn of manatea, add a real (long) manacooldown for the monk like shadowfiend or the totem. This would need another "hotfix" to actually reduce Manacosts across the board. In general it would mean "remove the idea to be gdc capped from healing", by reducing its benefits. However i personally think this is just a dream since it would also involve another major overhaul of the way a monk heals and how its spells work.