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  1. #21
    Neither gearscore or resilience is inherently a bad thing.

    I would argue that the process of obtaining and depth of the gear itself is more important.

    When I think back to the arduous task that was obtaining epics back in vanilla it is obvious why we valued them so highly. You have to compete against more people for drops off bosses because there were forty people in your raid. This generated a sense of loot scarcity. If you didn't have the most DKP in your raid you knew that it might be several months before you received a much needed drop because you needed to 1, have enough dkp. and 2, it needed to drop. As I stated earlier in the thread, the loot tables were less forgiving back then. Further, in recent mmos they have adopted a sort of "smarter" loot drop system which lowers the chance of dropping X class gear if X class isn't in the raid.
    In addition to the inflated demand for loot, the loot itself was more interesting. There were funky procs, on use effects, and bizzare passives you could see as being helpful... Sometimes. If only one or two of these items existed at your tier, their value sky rocketed for that player. We don't see those types of items much anymore. Its mainly +400 stam + 300 str +120 crit rating. Not +20 stamina chance on hit to apply elder's special bad touch to target if target is under the age of 10.
    Lv40 (Firefall) Dragonfly, Mammoth, Nighthawk, Arsenal, Tigerclaw
    Lv50 (FF14) Paladin, Warrior (Swtor) Agent, Warrior, Knight, Inquisitor, Trooper, Consular, Smuggler, Hunter
    Lv60 (NWO) Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, Guardian, Cleric (Rift) Rogue
    Lv80/85 (GW2) Thief (WoW) Rogue, Mage, Priest, Hunter, Warlock, Warrior, Death Knight, Paladin, Druid, Shaman

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    okay. Whoa.

    Leveling in vanilla did not take months. It was not complicated. It was not diverse.

    Leveling in tbc was a joke. It took days, not even a week.

    edit: Also, don't give blizzard so much credit for mop. They lost 25% of their players over the course of cata so obviously they would change directions. its not hard.
    Levelling in vanilla did take months. Unless you were playing almost all day almost every day. Playing casually it took most players months. And in TBC it took a week? How? By getting boosted? Because I recall my current main being created in May of 2008 and reaching 70 in July, and that is by playing 4-5 times a week. That is several weeks, not a single week. How on earth did you level in one week to 70 in TBC? Does it have something to do with all the characters in your signature? Because I am talking about average players that want to have some fun levelling at a medium pace. Not players that want to power-level. I am actually curious.

    And it was compicated compared to Cataclysm's 1-60 content. Having no map-tracker for quests, you actually had to look at quest text, and some quests took you across several zones to complete, instead of quest objectives being conveniently near the quest hub. Having to go out to the world and explore to find what you needed to complete a quest instead of being directed to it, is what made levelling more complicated.

    Diversity came from different quests. There were no dailies to do, no grinding the same factions, because you were levelling most of the time and were directed to new zones; that is what I meant. Mists has a total of 7 zones in Pandaria to quest in. There are more zones in just Kalimdor's vanilla iteration, and then there are all the other zones across the sea, in the Eastern Kingdoms. That is variety. What is more there were racial campaigns. Humans had their story, and dwarves had theirs. And there were Alliance quests down the road. That is also variety. Now there are only Alliance and Horde quests. The repeatable content came at the level cap almost exclusively. And again, I am talking compared to Cataclysm's overhaul of questing. Not in general. Of course and there are more complex questing experiences in other role-playing games. But vanilla and TBC questing was miles ahead of Cataclysm's in complexity, just by virtue of requiring you to think on your own instead of having the game playing itself for you. Also, to clarify, I don't think that vanilla and TBC questing was amazing. What I think is that they were good as a basis to develop amazing content in the future. In that spirit, of adventuring in the world, not taking a ride near the quest hub or killing the same bosses repeatedly. There is a reason why WoW is labelled as a role-playing game and not hack-n-slash or roguelike (like Diablo). It's not just about loot tables and boss mechanics. It's about playing in a vast world. Dungeon-running being a part of the expierence, but just that, a part.

    And why shouldn't I give Blizzard credit for changing their philosophy and trying to make the game more fun for casuals that want to actually do something else than grind dungeons? Obviously they did it because they saw that Cataclysm's approach of handing things easily was wrong. And they decided to fix that. They deserve a lot of credit in my opinion.
    Last edited by Drithien; 2012-12-03 at 05:53 PM.

  3. #23
    Leveling in vanilla wow was not complicated at all. People need take off their nostalgia goggles.

  4. #24
    As for blade and soul i hope it's not a Tera clone with a great combat system but where endgame is represented by crafting and enchanting ur weapon with mindless and neverinding grind to cap professions and get mats (all with a great dose of rng) and with a facepalming and repetitive leveling experience, btw i really like gw2, if it only had some serious endgame it could go from an excellent game to an outstanding game

  5. #25
    I kind of doubt Blade and Soul will be released in 2013 in the US/Europe. If it does it will be most likely a poor translated effort.

  6. #26
    Scarab Lord Buckwald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Leveling in vanilla wow was not complicated at all. People need take off their nostalgia goggles.
    I think those that ACTUALLY played vanilla wouldn't say it's complicated. It was easy, just boring:
    Do all the quests in the zone while alt+tabbing to wowhead (or thotbot) to find quest mobs. Grind mobs after questing if you aren't high enough for the next zone. There were quests that took you all over Azeroth, but those were fun in their own right.

    How about the trip from Undercity to Thunderbluff to learn "guns". Yeah, try that on US-Mannoroth back at launch. Intense.

  7. #27
    Blade & Soul, Lineage Eternal, and Mabinogi Arena (Vindictus 2 basically). Can't stand the archaic tab-targeting style MMOs anymore, it's outdated and it's about time more action MMORPGs are coming out with good combat systems. It's not that I particularly like Korean MMOs, but they have jumped ahead of NA in terms of innovation in the MMORPG industry in my opinion. Too many NA developers (and their respective investors) won't risk breaking out of the WoW model.

    As for a new MMO giving that UO or EQ experience, I wouldn't hold your breath. It would take some kind of revolutionary innovation to create that kind of chemistry that those games did to boom the MMO industry.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Levelling in vanilla did take months. Unless you were playing almost all day almost every day. Playing casually it took most players months. And in TBC it took a week? How? By getting boosted? Because I recall my current main being created in May of 2008 and reaching 70 in July, and that is by playing 4-5 times a week. That is several weeks, not a single week. How in earth did you level in one week to 70 in TBC? Does it have something to do with all the characters in your signature? Because I am talking about average players that want to have some fun levelling at a medium pace. Not players that want to power-level.I am actually curious.
    Boosted? No.
    Knowing all the quests in the game? Yes.

    The casual argument could be made for swtor as well. Or any game with any sort of leveling system, ever. It might take a casual gamer a year to hit 50 in swtor. All depending on how casual they are.

    I usually did hfp through the northern half of zangar in a single night. Then the last half and nargrand could carry me to about 66/67. At which point you could skip to netherstorm and unlock the tower quest series with which you turn in all the different ghost items for like a quick 2 levels. It was incredibly easy.

    Diversity came from different quests. There were no dailies to do, no grinding the same factions, because you were levelling most of the time and were directed to new zones; that is what I meant.
    Again, this could easily be applied to just about any mmo. Not so many people grind dailies to level. In fact, most dailies in mmos are at the level cap and in the form of daily hubs like isle of queldanis. As to the faction grinding, most people wait till max level to do that too since it usually involves killing copious amounts of npcs which goes faster if you are higher level and in decent gear. As to pandaria having less zones, well yeah. Haven't you notice that wow has gotten pretty lazy. I mean, look at rift. They tripled the size of their world in a single expansion. That's what we should expect.

    Also, the story is still there. Its just no longer interesting to you. (Or many people for the matter). How is that variety anyways?

    I could go on but there's a lot of rosey goggling and I don't feel like addressing every aspect of this.

    Further, I don't think you should give a company a lot of credit for pulling its head out of the oven. That's like being proud of someone for not stabbing themselves repeatedly.
    Lv40 (Firefall) Dragonfly, Mammoth, Nighthawk, Arsenal, Tigerclaw
    Lv50 (FF14) Paladin, Warrior (Swtor) Agent, Warrior, Knight, Inquisitor, Trooper, Consular, Smuggler, Hunter
    Lv60 (NWO) Rogue, Fighter, Wizard, Guardian, Cleric (Rift) Rogue
    Lv80/85 (GW2) Thief (WoW) Rogue, Mage, Priest, Hunter, Warlock, Warrior, Death Knight, Paladin, Druid, Shaman

  9. #29
    I have made my shot at almost every "WoW Killer", Aion, Rift, SWToR, Warhammer, AoC, GW2...honestly, all of them have strong points, but lack when you see the overall picture.
    Rift is a very strong, and maybe the greatest winner if you see every single other MMO that have attempted to steal WoW's throne, SWToR, was strong in history line, with a very nice evolution in the cutscenes, and a deep history, Warhammer had what GW2 have, a nice world PvP, to be honest GW2 have others strong points, but is a game where you lack of solo content, and the grind is a little painful, in my opinion...
    So there is no WoW killer, like most ppl have said before, the only thing that will kill WoW, is WoW, even Diablo 3, that have been considered by many as a game that could ends with WoW life, failed on the eternal grind...

    I can't see any game, for now, with a chance to steal from WoW...players who are in this game love this, and those who hate, have gone already/

    ---------- Post added 2012-12-03 at 06:07 PM ----------

    Quote Originally Posted by Goosie View Post
    Blade & Soul, Lineage Eternal, and Mabinogi Arena (Vindictus 2 basically). Can't stand the archaic tab-targeting style MMOs anymore, it's outdated and it's about time more action MMORPGs are coming out with good combat systems. It's not that I particularly like Korean MMOs, but they have jumped ahead of NA in terms of innovation in the MMORPG industry in my opinion. Too many NA developers (and their respective investors) won't risk breaking out of the WoW model.

    As for a new MMO giving that UO or EQ experience, I wouldn't hold your breath. It would take some kind of revolutionary innovation to create that kind of chemistry that those games did to boom the MMO industry.
    I have to agree with you, Korean MMO's are way far ahead, the only problem is that they don't go across the sea, so not many ppl get introduced to them...

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    snip
    lvling in vanilla didn´t take months, it took longer than tbc or any other expansion but not months, and it was only complicated for like the first 20 lvls, after that it was the same, each and everytime, except the classquests, the cata 1-60 quests brought some fun into lowlvl questing

    tbc was days, allthough i remember lvling in a group of 5 and doing dungeons as we were able to enter, but you could consider that powerlvling

    vanilla endgame was flying from dungeon to dungeon, killing useless mobs for repgrind and farming rediculously amounts of bufffood and other mats, or waiting infront of ws/av/ah if you prefered pvp

    don´t get me wrong, i pretty much liked vanilla and every expansion, some things changed for the better and others didn´t, but with mop i have more fun in the first few weeks then i had in wotlk/cata

    i absolutely love challange mode and i like the raids, this is a really fun game

    swtor was terrible in my eyes, the huge storyline you travelled through while lvling ended as soon as you hit lvl 50, no npc or anything remembered what you accomplished in the last days, it brought back some bugs i HATED in wow and the endgame was nonexistend, after the first month i did pvp because pve was pretty much impossible on our server and the dailyquests offered nothing

    swtor was fun as long as you hadn´t reached maxlvl, it sometimes even was hard (classquests) and it had the same problems wow had in vanilla, running out of quests to soon

    i guess i´m offtopic now, just wanted to share my views
    secretly gay

    Quote Originally Posted by Tinykong View Post
    Remember, a firearm homicide is not always firearm violence.

  11. #31
    Go to google and type in new mmos or something like that and look for a website dedicated to news on all mmos, you'll find a ton of mmos coming out. I use mmosite and mmorpg.com sometimes.

    Primeworld is mostly a DOTA League of legends like game with some extra things such as castles and stuff added to it. http://en.playpw.com

    Wildstar is a Wow/SWTOR like mmo with many unique or reimagined features which imo will be one of the best mmos out there if Ncsoft doesn't wreck it. http://www.wildstar-online.com/en/

    ESO is looking like it will be a pretty good game but will probally end up being released early in 2014(2013 if they stick with the date they have planned but then it could end up like SWTOR and be rushed).

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Boosted? No.
    Knowing all the quests in the game? Yes.

    The casual argument could be made for swtor as well. Or any game with any sort of leveling system, ever. It might take a casual gamer a year to hit 50 in swtor.
    It takes about 2-3 weeks to get to level cap in TOR without knowing the quests. And I am talking about not knowing the quests, obviously. I think that you are mixing your preference of multiple alts to what an average player does, which is level 2 maybe 3 characters, not 10. Which is what leads to:

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I usually did hfp through the northern half of zangar in a single night. Then the last half and nargrand could carry me to about 66/67. At which point you could skip to netherstorm and unlock the tower quest series with which you turn in all the different ghost items for like a quick 2 levels. It was incredibly easy.
    Do you still remember how most players level? I am not trying to be sarcastic, honestly. They do most of the quests in the zone where they are. Not make plans about how to maximize their xp accumulation. When TBC came out, I was not looking on how to avoid questing. I wanted to do quests. What you are talking about is not what the average player does. So it's almost completely irrelevant. Blizzard did not make WoW for the altoholics or pro raiders only. They made it first and foremost for the average players.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Again, this could easily be applied to just about any mmo. Not so many people grind dailies to level. In fact, most dailies in mmos are at the level cap and in the form of daily hubs like isle of queldanis. As to the faction grinding, most people wait till max level to do that too since it usually involves killing copious amounts of npcs which goes faster if you are higher level and in decent gear. As to pandaria having less zones, well yeah. Haven't you notice that wow has gotten pretty lazy. I mean, look at rift. They tripled the size of their world in a single expansion. That's what we should expect.
    I am not talking about levelling through dailies. I am talking about the fact that while at the level cap there is mostly repeated content (dailies, dungeons, arenas, battlegrounds), in levelling there are different quests, zones, etc, as you progress. My point being that when levelling was a major part of the game a lot of the time an average player spent in it, was playing through content that changed, hence the variety.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Also, the story is still there. Its just no longer interesting to you. (Or many people for the matter). How is that variety anyways?
    Can you seriously not understand where the variety is when you can choose one of several racial campaigns instead of having just one campaign available or did you not understand what I wrote? There was not just one story. there were multiple. Which story you would follow was up to you. There were even zones that no campaign would lead you to, but had quests nontheless to do. Having more than one option is the definition of variety. I don't know how else to explain this.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    I could go on but there's a lot of rosey goggling and I don't feel like addressing every aspect of this.
    I specifically said that I don't think that vanilla WoW was all that great, but that it was quite good as the basis for something better in the future. So I don't know where did you see the coloured goggling.

    Quote Originally Posted by hk-51 View Post
    Further, I don't think you should give a company a lot of credit for pulling its head out of the oven. That's like being proud of someone for not stabbing themselves repeatedly.
    That is your opinion, and while you are entitled to it, I disagree with you. First, I do not quantify credit. I can also say I give them some credit if that makes it more understandable. Second, I think that realising your mistakes is commendable, even if that mistake was to put your head in the oven. I don't have any personal vendetta against Blizzard, despite my disagreements with how they handle things these past few years, to act any differently.

    But anyway, since this is not a thread about WoW, vanilla or otherwise, and it has been derailed more than enough, I will shush
    Last edited by Drithien; 2012-12-03 at 06:25 PM.

  13. #33
    Let's get back on the topic of MMO's coming out in 2013, guys.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Buckwald View Post
    I think those that ACTUALLY played vanilla wouldn't say it's complicated. It was easy, just boring:
    Do all the quests in the zone while alt+tabbing to wowhead (or thotbot) to find quest mobs. Grind mobs after questing if you aren't high enough for the next zone. There were quests that took you all over Azeroth, but those were fun in their own right.

    How about the trip from Undercity to Thunderbluff to learn "guns". Yeah, try that on US-Mannoroth back at launch. Intense.
    Well it didn't hand hold you to be sure. Lotro was like that as well when it first came out. But if you read the text you could figure out where to go and what to do next. Learning all of the weapon skills was a pain, in addition to leveling those skills. I think getting rid of that was a good change in a mmo game perspective (maybe not in an rpg perspective).

    I didn't play horde in vanilla but I do remember trying to get to Ironforge with my nightelf at around level 12. A lot of deaths were involved there. What I remember fondly about wow in those days was the newness of the game (and the genre for me) and the exploration. But leveling wasn't hard at all, it was just rather mundane as you said.

    Edit: sorry edge, wrote this before you posted

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Doozerjun View Post
    Leveling in vanilla wow was not complicated at all. People need take off their nostalgia goggles.
    You are saying camping the 3 out of 30 harpies near thunder bluff that were not evading, was not complicated?

    Elder scrolls is the only one. 3 faction PvP, Morrowind stile of free form spilling up, a setting that was a blockbuster this year. Elder scrolls on paper, has everything that wow fans and haters have been looking for. 3 faction DOAC folks! 3!!!
    Last edited by Felya420; 2012-12-03 at 06:34 PM.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by edgecrusherO0 View Post
    Let's get back on the topic of MMO's coming out in 2013, guys.

    Seems people cant read

  17. #37
    Kingdoms of Amalur was supposed to be made into an mmo, but I think the sales of the RPG didn't match expectation. Even though it was critically acclaimed.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Kingdoms of Amalur was supposed to be made into an mmo, but I think the sales of the RPG didn't match expectation. Even though it was critically acclaimed.
    Well it would have been an mmo, if the whole financial fiasco didn't happen.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Felya420 View Post
    Kingdoms of Amalur was supposed to be made into an mmo, but I think the sales of the RPG didn't match expectation. Even though it was critically acclaimed.
    They did match expectations, it sold over 2 million copies. The internal finances were a mess though and they ran out of money before finishing the MMO (Project Capernicus) so the company closed down. And it wasn't a direct translation of KoA into a MMO, it was even more stylized, but it did take place in the same universe IIRC.

  20. #40
    High Overlord Kissme's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Drithiend View Post
    Levelling in vanilla did take months. Unless you were playing almost all day almost every day. Playing casually it took most players months. And in TBC it took a week? How? By getting boosted? Because I recall my current main being created in May of 2008 and reaching 70 in July, and that is by playing 4-5 times a week. That is several weeks, not a single week. How on earth did you level in one week to 70 in TBC? Does it have something to do with all the characters in your signature? Because I am talking about average players that want to have some fun levelling at a medium pace. Not players that want to power-level. I am actually curious.
    It depended on your playstyle. TBC was the height of WoW's draw, so it wasn't uncommon for people to take a few days of vacation right at the release. About 10 of my guildies all took 3 days vacation at release. We played a ridiculous amount each day (and were going fast enough that we actually were doing dungeons before there were online guides to them, so learning bosses was trial and error) and levelling was stupidly quick. We also focussed almost exclusively on dungeon levelling and then around the late 60s we powerlevelled a friend through Blood Furnace runs. Even the friend that didn't get his time off until 3 days after us hit 70 within a week of the release.

    Alts then levelled at a more reasonable pace, but a week to level wasn't uncommon for mains of most players back then. Really slow players might have taken longer, but most of us were anxious to get keyed and start into karazahn.

    I actually can't think of an expansion that took longer than a week to get to max level on my main - but I was power levelled back in Vanilla (I started about 4 months in, when everyone I knew was reasonably geared 60s, so I got powered through dungeons.)

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