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  1. #1

    [Fire] Where Fire currently sits.

    http://simulationcraft.org/510/Raid_T14H.html

    Ok so this is the updated version and specifically i dont really care about the majority of that, but i want to compare Fire to Destruction.

    Realistically is this about where people feel Fire is in regard to Destruction assuming 490+ gear (im sure Destruction has a minor advantage before that point)

    Because i have heard some absurd madness from mages stating the spec is now unplayable (personally i find this hard to believe) I manage just over 90k and 100k on Feng and Gara'jal on the heroic version of these boss's (im 490 Ilevel and this was the first kill on them this week so im 100% certain there is room for improvement there).

    To me this definetly doesnt come close to unviable, so im just interested to know where people feel Fire is in regard to Destruction.

    Feel free to Check Wol to confirm those numbers btw^

  2. #2
    It´s not gonna be unplayable, but the problem is - especially with the trend of very strict enrage timers - we need to play the top DPS spec. If a spec gets nerfed (especially as harsh as it happened now with -15 to -20% overall) we have to check the alternatives.
    Generally Arcane was scaling a little better than Fire anyways and with the current nerf its very likely Arcane is the way to go with increasing gear levels. Fire isn´t the worst spec ingame, but playing an inferior spec on a class just doesn´t work.

  3. #3
    Disclaimer: I am currently sitting at 477iLevel gear

    The thing about fire is that it scales funnily with gear, most notably crit rating. Originally Critical Mass gave your main dps abilities a 1.5x multiplier on your critical skill, which at my modest 27.5% self-buffed turned into 41.25%. However, after the nerf that dropped to 34.38%, which is quite a steep ~7% drop. Someone in 490 gear, with what I assume is somewhat close to 33% base crit, critical mass would result into a primary skill crit chance of 49.5%, or 41.25% after the nerf. This IS a bigger drop than what I experienced, but crit benefit increases nigh exponentially the more you got. Above 50% you'll be critting pretty much constantly, removing the dreaded RNG factor that plagued that spec since the olden days. I must note however that these are not solid numbers, mostly speaking out of personal experience and to a lesser extent, gut feeling. The bottom line is, at the number of iterations these simcrafts run, you effectively even out the RNG component of the spec and get a nice, even average that doesn't look too bad.

    Unfortunately, a real fight scenario doesn't repeat itself that many times and you're more likely than not at the mercy of the RNG gods. As discussed above, this isn't the case THAT much for high iLevel gear, and the spec most certainly didn't take such a huge hit "up there", but in such mid-level gear, it's pretty much dead through and through.

    I am not familiar with the mechanics of destro, but even though those 2 averages are really close, I imagine the standard deviation of fire is leaps and bounds bigger than destro's.

    Again, I could be wrong on all accounts, feel free to correct me if I am.

  4. #4
    This was why i said to focus on 490+ gear as i do agree the nerf was very very harsh on anything below that, but i dont really believe Destructions damage to be unviable at all, i think i ranked top 8 in the world last nite on Gara'jal as Destruction with 102k (which even by affliction standards is not exactly bad) and i did top damage in that group, i dont see that you 'have to play' the top Dps spec, personally i play for fun and anything imo that is doing more than 'middle of the pack' is an outier and you shouldnt need that level of damage to kill boss's.

    Note im in 490 gear, and only just pulled the first 3 boss's in MV this week on heroic so i know i can up that damage, my point is if fire can do the same as that i think the nerf is 100% fine (for people over 490 gear).

  5. #5
    Epic! Demetrion's Avatar
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    Fire currently sits at the bottom of the pit

    It's not unplayable, the buff to combustion was over the top and you had to expect to have it nerfed. I got 2 mages in my guild. One of them is rolling frost and other (raid leader) will go for arcane until fire comes above them again.

  6. #6
    I just find it amazing how Flavor of the Month all of these players actually are, Fire damage is simming literally the same as destruction (which is fine, its just not OP)

  7. #7
    I think what most people are angry about is the Huge difference from what fire was before and what it is now, especially the way it has been done with crit, making fire alot more RNG and less skill based than previously, yes its comparable to destro but your comparing it to a spec that is also not optimal for the class.

    Most people who want or are expected to get the best from their character will feel forced to change specs, seeing frost and arcane 10-15% higher output than fire is huge incentive to drop fire which has long been the favored spec for mage, I think all would agree we would much prefer all 3 specs as close as possible to each other in output so people have a guild free choice of spec to play.

    I can see many a mage will be feeling the pressure of their guild to switch spec.

    Might have been easier for them to put some upper limits on how much crit you gain from critical mass which would remove the inflated crit ratings at higher gear, the current fix is only delaying the exact same issue that will occur at future tiers.

  8. #8
    The Patient Berkhtar's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I just find it amazing how Flavor of the Month all of these players actually are, Fire damage is simming literally the same as destruction (which is fine, its just not OP)
    Yes and they are not both boring as hell... it is not about dmg... the spec is simply not fun anymore. They can nerf FB-scaling, Pyro-scaling etc... but not CM which makes the spec fun to play, because it is not fun to push FB for 30 seconds to get a crit...

  9. #9
    Lol its the exact opposite of FoTM, at least in my intentions. I was all about playing frost at the beginning of this expansion, and I went through hell arguing its merit, but when fire was so ridiculous that the difference between my near perfect play dps and our fire mages average rng dps was the same amount of dmg left on cleave bosses after 1% wipes, I just couldn't look at my raid and tell them it was worth it anymore. It was so bad you were basically forced to go fire or look like an ass, it wasn't the slight dps difference between specs we all thought it would be.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Exostential View Post
    Lol its the exact opposite of FoTM, at least in my intentions. I was all about playing frost at the beginning of this expansion, and I went through hell arguing its merit, but when fire was so ridiculous that the difference between my near perfect play dps and our fire mages average rng dps was the same amount of dmg left on cleave bosses after 1% wipes, I just couldn't look at my raid and tell them it was worth it anymore. It was so bad you were basically forced to go fire or look like an ass, it wasn't the slight dps difference between specs we all thought it would be.
    I hate to say this, and this is not supposed to be an insult, but you´d never have been in my raids in the first place.
    You want to raid as a pure DPS class, you go with the spec most viable for a boss, or in mage case with the only sec viable for every situation imaginable (until now) or you go LFR raiding.

  11. #11

    Incredible

    Quote Originally Posted by DoubleTrouble View Post
    I hate to say this, and this is not supposed to be an insult, but you´d never have been in my raids in the first place.
    You want to raid as a pure DPS class, you go with the spec most viable for a boss, or in mage case with the only sec viable for every situation imaginable (until now) or you go LFR raiding.
    You are bad raid leader than and i would be glad to explain it and i would never raid with you. You cannot consider only spec of player. Really this make me totally crazy. I have been playing WOW for 8 years some years even hardcore and no raid leader told that. U have to be prepared with all flask so on, you need to know your class and fight and be good person. Mainly it is game and you play with people and you want to have fun otherwise you can stack 17 (unfun fire mages who think only about get loot when they dont get loot they leave) for examples if u want to have the best dps. And if you are doing good dps and you know encounter and you are doing what is supposed so u can kill everyboss in game. Enough said

    Have a good day

  12. #12
    Simcraft is simply totally wrong. Practice showed a totally different picture, especially because of high mobility, utility, very strong cleave and far overpowered scaling.

    Look at Raidbots 25m and 10m:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...default/#5fvjj
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...default/#5fvjj

    Fire mages were on average already 20% ahead of elemental shamans and balance druids. With time cming, it would have gone up to 30% or even more in T16 heroic.

    What we still have to see: it's very much possible that arcane is still overpowered or even frost. So fire will still be best specc for some fights, overall ebaten only be combat rogues - but with a huge distance to the other damage dealers.

    And simcraft simply is and stays wrong, like it always was.

  13. #13
    I agree that for the most part Simcraft is 'mostly' inaccurate, it still gives a reasonable guideline for potential damage of the specs.

    Thank you for your help anyway guys i found out what i wanted to.

    This though . . .

    I hate to say this, and this is not supposed to be an insult, but you´d never have been in my raids in the first place.
    You want to raid as a pure DPS class, you go with the spec most viable for a boss, or in mage case with the only sec viable for every situation imaginable (until now) or you go LFR raiding.

    You need to sort your life out so badly, it is this attitude that is inflating this problem, if you are raiding top 10 in the world sure i can get this, but you would obviously want to be raiding in an enviroment where its Top damage spec or nothing, this is no where near the majority of the community.

    Also do me a favor and link your armory, id like to see at what level you are raiding to start making ridiculous calls like this.

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Klatar View Post
    Simcraft is simply totally wrong. Practice showed a totally different picture, especially because of high mobility, utility, very strong cleave and far overpowered scaling.

    Look at Raidbots 25m and 10m:

    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...default/#5fvjj
    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_D...default/#5fvjj

    Fire mages were on average already 20% ahead of elemental shamans and balance druids. With time cming, it would have gone up to 30% or even more in T16 heroic.

    What we still have to see: it's very much possible that arcane is still overpowered or even frost. So fire will still be best specc for some fights, overall ebaten only be combat rogues - but with a huge distance to the other damage dealers.

    And simcraft simply is and stays wrong, like it always was.

    Sure, but this nerf was more than 20%.. So yee good luck explaining that..

    On the actual discussion on fire being viable or not and is it a good spec.. Sure it is, but for progression raiders.. it aint, there are only few fights now that fire would produce the highest dps(out of mage specs). And those saying that those rolling specs are FotM for doing so, you are missing the whole point of being a pure dps class I guess. You will want to be the best you can be, and unless you aint having fun with the other specs, you will be better of playing them, in any guild that cares to down a boss sooner than later.

  15. #15
    Playing a Pure dps class has nothing to do with how much damage you do in regard to other class's (take elemental for example) name me one reason you think you should have so much more damage than an elemental shaman just because you play a mage.

    Hybrid Tax is a thing of the past and also those specs arent just there to buff the 'pure' dps class's with a haste buff.

    And for the record, fire is probably still higher than elemental on the majority of fights.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    Playing a Pure dps class has nothing to do with how much damage you do in regard to other class's (take elemental for example) name me one reason you think you should have so much more damage than an elemental shaman just because you play a mage.

    Hybrid Tax is a thing of the past and also those specs arent just there to buff the 'pure' dps class's with a haste buff.

    And for the record, fire is probably still higher than elemental on the majority of fights.
    I didnt say pure should push more than anyone else, I said being a pure was abt being the best you can be within your spec selection. And sure hybrid tax is all gone and stuff, but its a bit funny you should say that cause in progression raiding if every spec would be level on dps, I would prolly stack a 10 man with hybrid dps's, as they just have silly cooldowns to use that no pure dps has. In 25 man however you are correct if 1 class does more dps on every fight than others its unfair to the other specs..

  17. #17

  18. #18
    Not accurate at all in a real raid environment. Last night we did H Amber Shaper and Normal Empress and we had 3 mages. One was fire, another raider and I were frost. We were all about equal for both fights overall. When the fire mage got really nice combustions, he was slightly above us, when he got shitty ones, he was slightly below us. Doing a clear of Terrace tonight so I'll be able to see more accurate results but even still, lol. This is why I hate sims. People seem to think they're the end all be all when they couldn't be any further from the truth.

  19. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Jaylol View Post
    Not accurate at all in a real raid environment. Last night we did H Amber Shaper and Normal Empress and we had 3 mages. One was fire, another raider and I were frost. We were all about equal for both fights overall. When the fire mage got really nice combustions, he was slightly above us, when he got shitty ones, he was slightly below us. Doing a clear of Terrace tonight so I'll be able to see more accurate results but even still, lol. This is why I hate sims. People seem to think they're the end all be all when they couldn't be any further from the truth.
    Thing is though on Amber shaper, fire benefits from its natural cleave much more than arcane or frost, so he should have been topping by quite some margin on that, and the empress fight is the real interesting 1 for me, was the fire topping there, cause my sense would say arcane there would top, frost after(but close)and fire last by quite some margin

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by AjayxD View Post
    I just find it amazing how Flavor of the Month all of these players actually are, Fire damage is simming literally the same as destruction (which is fine, its just not OP)
    Really? So am I to believe that the majority of Warlocks have been farming destruction gear to they can focus on raiding with the lowest dps output spec? People don't get it. Did fire need a nerf? Of course, but to make it completely unviable is a slap in the face to the players that have now wasted 8 weeks of raiding to obtain crit gear.
    Last edited by Babylonia; 2012-12-03 at 08:05 PM.

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